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Author | Topic: Did Jesus Declare All Food Clean? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
In Jesus: A Profile, Alan Watson argues that, contrary to popular translations, Mark 7:19 does not actually say that Jesus declared all foods clean, and that Jesus most certainly never made such a declaration.
For the technical aspects of the argument, Watson makes mention of a translation difficulty with the text in Mark 7:19 that supposedly states Jesus to have declared all foods clean. The verses in question are these (since translation differences are important, I've included two translations for comparison and italicized the significant parts):
quote: quote: According to Watson, the KJV translation is to be seen as more accurate, as he says:
quote: Thus, from the text, the part of Mark 7:19 translated in the NRSV as '(Thus he declared all foods clean)' is difficult to reconstruct as an actual declaration of the cleanness of all foods; and even when so translated, the words are far from attributable to Jesus himself.1 For the theological and textual interpretative aspect of the argument, we can look to a few facts brought up by Watson:
These points, along with the problematic translations, seem to weaken the position that Jesus did in fact declare all foods clean. All together, it certainly leaves the matter open to ask the question: did Jesus really declare all foods clean? Jon__________ 1 Regarding the quibble over καθαρίζον or καθαρίζων, I know nothing of Greek; the presence of anyone who could explain that specific would be greatly welcomed in this thread! __________ Watson, A. (1998) Jesus: A Profile. Georgia: UGP. Edited by Jon, : Edit to fix signature glitch... Edited by Jon, : Fixed broken link... Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
Thread copied here from the Did Jesus Declare All Food Clean? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3483 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No. I agree with Watson, that Jesus was addressing the issue of hand washing before eating. IMO, that added statement shows that the author of Mark didn't know Jesus or the disciples.
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Jon Inactive Member |
IMO, that added statement shows that the author of Mark didn't know Jesus or the disciples. While it is likely true that the author of Mark did not know Jesus or the disciples, I am not sure that the 'added statement' is the best proof of that. As Watson points out, the instance of the phrase that we have in modern translations such as the NRSV is likely a highly corrupted and interpretative translation of the original Greek. The KJV translation, according to Watson, captures what he believes to be the most likely meaning of the phrase, it being little more than a tag-along statement to Jesus' previous 'empties into the sewer' comment. Either way, if Jesus never declared all foods clean, is it likely that he would have required observation of the Jewish food laws by his followers? Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3483 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Didn't say it was the best proof. It is just one of many. When we look at the same story in Matthew, we see the author made it clear that the issue of the discussion was hand washing.
Matthew 15:20 "...These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'" quote:As I understand it, his followers did follow the food laws. From the book "a History of Christianity" by Kenneth Scott Latourette, 1953. To their neighbors these early followers of Jesus, for they did not yet bear the distinctive designation of Christian, must have appeared another sect of Judaism, predominantly Galilean in membership, distinguished from other Jews by their belief that Jesus was the Messiah and by their expectation of the early return of their Lord. Their leader, James, appears to have been especially conservative in his loyalty to Jewish customs. They continued to use the temple as a place of worship and observed the Jewish law, including its ceremonies, circumcision, and the dietary regulations. Even some of the pharisees joined them. So far as we know, their numbers were recruited entirely from Jews and proselytes to Judaism. We also see in Acts 15 that the decision was made not to require that Gentiles follow the laws of Moses except for what they listed in verse 29. Even in that debate, no mention of Jesus doing away with the food laws for Jewish followers. I understand what you saying about the translation issue. The idea of clean and unclean had several levels of meaning. I think the comment purging all meats/foods referred to removing them from the system not declaring the food laws void.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
It seems that God told Peter in a symbol of the Gentiles that He had made all foods clean.
"But Peter said, By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything common and unclean. And a voice came to him again a second time: The things that God has cleansed, do not make common. And this occured three times; and immediatley the vessel was taken up into heaven." (See Acts 10:10-16) The vessel had been filled with "all the four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth and birds of heaven." (v.12) I have no doubt that the foods, in God's progressive revelation of His salvation, were symbolic of peoples even from Leviticus. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Jon Inactive Member |
I have no doubt that the foods, in God's progressive revelation of His salvation, were symbolic of peoples even from Leviticus. Huh?
It seems that God told Peter in a symbol of the Gentiles that He had made all foods clean.
"But Peter said, By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything common and unclean. And a voice came to him again a second time: The things that God has cleansed, do not make common. And this occured three times; and immediatley the vessel was taken up into heaven." (See Acts 10:10-16) The vessel had been filled with "all the four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth and birds of heaven." (v.12) What does this have to do with whether or not Jesus declared all foods clean? Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
What does this have to do with whether or not Jesus declared all foods clean? Jesus is God incarnate. He who has seen Him has seen the Father. He spoke the words of the Father and did the word of the Father and thoroughly expressed the Father. And in this passage God told Peter to get over his past reluctance to eat "unclean" foods. (Acts 10:10-16) Three times He (the Lord) told Peter. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Jon Inactive Member |
And in this passage God told Peter to get over his past reluctance to eat "unclean" foods. (Acts 10:10-16) It requires an extreme amount of interpretive liberty to conclude that this 'vision' records an act of God declaring all creatures clean to eat. It could certainly be interpreted in the same way that Jesus' words are interpreted, when he tells the crowd not to treat human traditions like commandments from God:
quote: And even more to the point, there is good reason to read this vision as having little to do with food and as supporting the notion that Jesus never declared all foods clean:
So there isn't a whole lot in this vision to grasp at as God (actually just a voice that Peter calls 'Lord', and refers to later as 'God') definitively declaring any and all creatures clean to eat. Peter seems to have no desire to eat unclean animals; he shows no indication of hearing something like this from Jesus; God doesn't seem to be telling Peter that all unclean things are clean (indeed, there are two Greek words here used to reference non-clean foods: one that references uncleanness and another that references commonnessa sort of 'cross contamination'and God only approves of eating things of the latter type, not of the former); and Peter does not interpret the vision as having much of anything to do with food, which is clear upon reading the passages that follow. But, though I see little here for concluding that God, in this vision, declared unclean foods clean, even if God had declared all foods clean, what would that have to do with Jesus? (A question I asked already, to which you replied only with some apologetic nonsense.) Jon Edited by Jon, : clarity Love your enemies!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
It requires an extreme amount of interpretive liberty to conclude that this 'vision' records an act of God declaring all creatures clean to eat. It could certainly be interpreted in the same way that Jesus' words are interpreted, when he tells the crowd not to treat human traditions like commandments from God:
I will have to read the response latter in detail. But sure, if someone is trying to deduce from this that the Lord was wanting Peter to eat Cocaine or guzzle down whiskey from sun up to sun down, sure, that might be a stretch. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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zhenghan1019  Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 4529 days) Posts: 5 From: , Öйú Joined: |
I really like that. You touched my heart!
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Green Bay Packers jersey Edited by AdminModulous, : spam
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3483 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
This is a more appropriate thread for this since you brought it up again.
Please show me clearly the Greek that supports this quote that in saying this Jesus declared all foods clean. I've shown you that it isn't in the Greek. Mark 7:19 Greek Jesus was Jewish. He didn't undo the food laws. Biblical Dietary Laws Below you will find our argument at your fingertips.
GDR writes:
The Jews at the time of Christ had numerous food laws, primarily as detailed in Leviticus 11. Both Jesus and Paul rejected them which of course put them on the wrong side of Jewish leadership at the time. Jesus says this in Matthew 15.
quote: Jesus isn’t just saying that the rules are changing; He is saying that the original food laws from the OT were rules taught by men and that they were wrong. Paul in Romans 14 writes:
quote:Message 251 PurpleDawn writes:
Jesus did not reject the food laws. In Matthew 15:1-20 as in Mark 7:1-23 Jesus was talking about hand washing before eating. It wasn't about what was being eaten. I don't think handing washing was in the laws given by God in the OT. Besides, the Book of Matthew may have been written as a satire. Message 1 Paul did not reject the food laws. Romans 14 is more than likely dealing with meat offered to idols. Some Jews stayed away from all meats for fear that it might have been offered to an idol. The Fence around the Torah was a better safe than sorry approach. So they wouldn't accidentally break any of the laws. I haven't found a law from God in the OT that says his people couldn't eat meat that had been sacrificed to idols. He just didn't want them worshiping idols.
Romans 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. NIV Basically, eat and don't worry about everyone elses rituals/beliefs or lack thereof. He isn't doing away with the food laws.
Message 253GDR writes:
purple dawn writes: Jesus did not reject the food laws. In Matthew 15:1-20 as in Mark 7:1-23 Jesus was talking about hand washing before eating. It wasn't about what was being eaten. I don't think handing washing was in the laws given by God in the OT. Besides, the Book of Matthew may have been written as a satire. Message 1 Mark 7:quote:(Emphasis mine) Mark even clarifies it for us that Jesus is saying that all foods are clean. purpledawn writes: Paul did not reject the food laws. Romans 14 is more than likely dealing with meat offered to idols. Some Jews stayed away from all meats for fear that it might have been offered to an idol. The Fence around the Torah was a better safe than sorry approach. So they wouldn't accidentally break any of the laws. I haven't found a law from God in the OT that says his people couldn't eat meat that had been sacrificed to idols. He just didn't want them worshiping idols. Here is more of Romans 14:quote:The question of food that has been offered to idols is dealt with separately in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians to deal with a specific question in that church. In his letter to the Romans it is clear that he is dealing with all food. Message 254PurpleDawn writes:
quote:Unfortunately, since we are working with translations, it is difficult to read the stories as we do any other book. The translations aren't all the same. That's why when there seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the understanding, I like to dig a bit deeper into the translation and see if I'm missing something. Interlinear and Parallel Bibles are handy. I use Biblos.com. Mark 7:19 InterlinearThe interlinear doesn't copy well, so you have to go to the link. Notice the words "purifying all the foods". The verse doesn't say that Jesus declared all foods clean. Mark 7:19 ParallelYou can read the rest at the link. Young's Literal Translation because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats.' Young's Literal Translation goes along with the point of what Jesus is saying concerning hand washing. The body is going to get rid of anything it can't use for nutrition. IOW, dirt from your hands is not going to survive digestion. In 1 Corinthians The hand washing rituals were commanded by tradition, not the God of Abraham. What we see in the OT are more common sense cleanliness rules. (Leviticus 15)
Washing the Hands - Judaism The rabbis of the Talmud derived the requirement of washing the hands as a consequence of the statement in Leviticus 15:11. The Talmud inferred the specific requirements of hand-washing from these passages. The Jews seemed to have made excess rules out of fear as I mentioned in Message 253 concerning the "fence" around the Torah.
quote:But he isn't negating the food laws. Romans 14: Who Is The Weak Brother? You're not showing me that my interpretation of passages is wrong. You're just repeating yourself. I'm not going to keep jumping through hoops as you add verses. You should have an understanding of how I read the Bible.
Message 255PurpleDawn writes:
So we have to understand what they are telling their audience, not what we want to hear. Just like the food issue in Message 253 and Message 255. Neither Jesus nor Paul did away with the food laws. Jesus addressed a traditional ritual and Paul basically was trying to make it easier for Jews and Gentiles to eat together. The early followers of Jesus still kept Jewish law.
To their neighbors these early followers of Jesus, for they did not yet bear the distinctive designation of Christian, must have appeared another sect of Judaism, predominantly Galilean in membership, distinguished from other Jews by their belief that Jesus was the Messiah and by their expectation of the early return of their Lord. Their leader, James, appears to have been especially conservative in his loyalty to Jewish customs. They continued to use the temple as a place of worship and observed the Jewish law, including its ceremonies, circumcision, and the dietary regulations. Even some of the pharisees joined them. So far as we know, their numbers were recruited entirely from Jews and proselytes to Judaism. --From the book "a History of Christianity" by Kenneth Scott Latourette, 1953. Message 259GDR writes:
OK so we don’t agree about how that scripture is to be understood. I still maintain that both Paul and Jesus were very clear that the food laws were not in effect.
Message 260PurpleDawn writes: Since the Jewish followers still followed the Jewish laws it is clear that neither Jesus nor Paul did away with the Jewish food laws. GDR writes:
But your arguments don’t fit the text. Mark even goes so far as to make it crystal clear when he says, (as I quoted earlier), that in saying this Jesus declared all foods clean.
Message 269
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: But that isn't entirely true, is it ? It isn't a word for word translation of the Greek, but we can see the words that it is translated from, which, word for word, say "purifying all the food", according to the page you cite. Now, it certainly seems to me that this translation is possible, even plausible, and presumably it does to the people who actually carried out the translation. So, it is disingenuous to claim that it isn't there. The issue is one of interpretation and correct translation.
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rstrats Member (Idle past 129 days) Posts: 138 Joined: |
Even if the parenthetical entry is authentic, I am not aware of any scripture that ever refers to unclean animals as food. Thus He could only be saying that clean animals would not be made unclean by eating with unwashed hands. However, as has been stated, the context of verses 1-20, has to do with the Pharisees practice of always washing their hands before eating. The subject is not clean and unclean animals, but unclean hands. The Messiah showed that unclean thoughts are the things that most defile a man, not just unwashed hands. After explaining that inner defilement of the mind is far worse than defilement of the body, the Messiah concluded: 19"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness blasphemies. 20"These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
The Pharisees watched every word and movement that the Messiah made. They falsely accused Him of breaking the Sabbath, and claimed that He blasphemed when He said God was His Father John 5:18. But never did any Jew accuse the Messiah of eating, or advocating the eating of unclean animals.
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Unclean meat in the OT is from "tame." Tame refers to
meat that is continated or polluted, meat that was not designed by the Creator (Jesus) for human consumption The majority of unclean meat is from scavengers; carnovores; birds of prey; and, bottom dwellers. Shrimp, lobster, crab, catfish when placed in continated water can purify thatwater, but the contaminates remain in them. Hogs have up to 19 parasites. Hogs will eat anything and the poisons remain intheir bodies. Noah was aware of the difference between animals designed to be consumed.and animals that we're not. This was centuries before the first Jew (Judah). The death of Jesus (the Creator) did not change the physiology of uncleananimals, nor did it alter their design purposes Jesus and His followers never ate meat that was never designed to be eaten. In the NT two words are used for unclean meat. Akathartos refers to meat that was never ddesigned to be eaten. Koinos refers to meat that is ceremoniallyunclean. For example, meat that was used in idol worship, as was almost all meat sold in the market place Paul had no problem eating koinos meat because he knew that all meat belonged to God. However, he would not eat this meat if it offended someonewho was weak in the faith In Col 2:16 the word meat is from "brosis.'' It means eating, not meat. Also, hand washing for the Pharisees was ceremonially in nature. Hands had to be washed in a prescribed manner. The water had to run down the forearm and off the elbows in a specific manner. It had nothing to do with removing dirt
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