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Author Topic:   Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement?
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


(1)
Message 1 of 760 (609045)
03-15-2011 4:03 PM


I propose that we are now entering into a new era of the theory of Evolution. This may be called the Information driven theory, the Bio-Communicative theory, the Cell Intelligence theory of Evolution, or whatever appropriate name fits the theory.
The History of evolution began with Darwin and his theory of descent with modification, the origins of hereditary variation or random mutations, and natural selection.
Darwin’s theory was based upon gradual change and positive natural selection.
Next came the Neo-Darwinism or the Modern Synthesis in the 20th century which basically combined Darwinian gradualism with genetics. Again the theory was basically random mutation and natural selection.
Both of these theories rely on mechanical forces, Physical and Chemical, and reductionism.
In a post in the Forum Biological Evolution I introduced James A. Shapiro’s 21 st Century Natural Genetic Engineering writings in the potential falsifications of the theory of evolutionthread.
.
Shapiro’s work is based upon discoveries from genome sequencing such as genome alterations in key places in evolutionary history, horizontal transfers of DNA segments, Whole Genome Doublings etc.
He states that the cellular information in the genome is a Read-Write memory system, which is different from the modern synthesis view of the genome as a Read only memory system subject only to accidental change.
Shapiro is of the opinion that Mobile DNA movements rather than replication errors serve as the primary engines of protein evolution.
He writes at page 8 of the above cited paper;
One of the traditional objections to Darwinian gradualism has been that it is too slow and indeterminate a process to account for natural adaptations, even allowing for long periods of random mutation and selection. A successful random walk through the virtually infinite dimensions of possible genome configurations simply has too low a probability of success [155] . Is there a more efficient way for cells to search 'genome space' and increase their probability of hitting upon useful new DNA structures? There is, and the underlying molecular mechanisms utilize the demonstrated capabilities of mobile DNA and other natural genetic engineering systems
At page 9 he writes;
The second major aspect of evolutionary change by natural genetic engineering is that it generally takes place after an activating event which produces what McClintock called a 'genome shock' [160] . Activating events include loss of food [18] , infection and interspecific hybridization (Tables 3 and 4) - just the events that we can infer from the geological and genomic records have happened repeatedly. Episodic activation of natural genetic engineering functions means that alterations to the genome occur in bursts rather than as independent events. Thus, novel adaptations that require changes at multiple locations in the genome can arise within a single generation and can produce progeny expressing all the changes at once. There is no requirement, as in conventional theory, that each individual change be beneficial by itself. The episodic occurrence of natural genetic engineering bursts also makes it very easy to understand the punctuated pattern of the geological record [161] . Moreover, the nature of activating challenges provides a comprehensible link to periodic disruptions in earth history. Geological upheavals that perturb an existing ecology are likely to lead to starvation, alteration of host-parasite relationships and unusual mating events between individuals from depleted populations.
Shapiro is not alone in advocating a change in evolutionary theory from the modern synthesis as now expressed, to one of Natural Genetic Engineering.
My purpose in this post is to discuss whether the Modern synthesis as it is know today should be modified? Replaced? With A theory based upon adaptations that are directed, modified, regulated and controlled by information exchanges in the cell rather than by mechanical physical, chemical driven adapations driven by random mutations and natural selection.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 10 of 760 (609084)
03-16-2011 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
03-16-2011 9:42 AM


Re: Pretty much an irrelevant question.
jar writes;
So far nothing in Shapiro's work seems to require such change or is unexplained. Further he in no way points to any directed non-natural methodology.
Shapiro in a paper "Revisiting the Central Dogma in the 21st century" published in Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences: 1178: 6-28 (2009) (which for some reason my link won't completely copy out on this page), but can be found by googling the paper in pdf form, wrote when discussing the molecular
analysis of fundamental biochemical processes in living cells wrote:
Lesson 4. Genome change arises as a consequence
of natural genetic engineering,
not from accidents. Replication errors
and DNA damage are subject to cell
surveillance and correction. When DNA
damage correction does produce novel
genetic structures, natural genetic engineering
functions, such as mutator polymerases
and nonhomologous end-joining
complexes, are involved. Realizing that
DNA change is a biochemical process
means that it is subject to regulation like
other cellular activities. Thus, we expect
to see genome change occurring in response
to different stimuli (Table 1) and
operating nonrandomly throughout the
genome, guided by various types of intermolecular
contacts (Table 1 of Ref. 112).
These expectations open up new ways
of thinking about the role of natural genetic
engineering in normal life cycles and
the potential for nonrandom processes in
evolution.
Although he is careful to use the term natural genetic engineering he does say that genetic changes are not by accident. He also states that we expect to see changes operating nonrandomly...
This appears to me that he is talking about non random changes that are different from the theory as set forth today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 03-16-2011 9:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 03-16-2011 2:22 PM shadow71 has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 11 of 760 (609086)
03-16-2011 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
03-16-2011 10:18 AM


Dr Adequate writes;
Well, far be it from me to point out the bleedin' obvious, but however you slice these mechanisms they are in fact "mechanical physical, chemical driven adaptations", because everything that happens to the genome, which is a mechanical and physical and chemical thing, is; and they are subject to natural selection because everything that reproduces is.
The difference is that these are driven by information in the cell, not by purely mechanical processes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-16-2011 10:18 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 18 of 760 (609103)
03-16-2011 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taq
03-16-2011 11:18 AM


taq writes;
Should the Modern Synthesis change? Of course. It has not stopped changing in the last 70 years. It will continue to change. It has to change. Will we need to chuck the theory altogether? No one has found a reason to yet. The fundamentals of the theory are still widely accepted: mutations are blind to fitness and natural selection is blind to sequence and design. Even Shapiro agrees with this fundamental tenet of the Modern Synthesis. The rest are just details which do change over time.
Here is where I have a hard time with Shapiro. In the following quote from Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century | Mobile DNA | Full Text he writes :
Although there remain many gaps in our knowledge, we are now in a position to outline a distinctively 21st century scenario for evolutionary change. The scenario includes the following elements:
(1) hereditary variation arises from the non-random action of built-in biochemical systems that mobilize DNA and carry out natural genetic engineering;
((3) ecologically-triggered cell and genome restructurings produce organisms which, at some frequency, will possess novel adaptive features that suit the altered environment. Novel adaptive features can be complex from the beginning because they result from processes that operate on pre-existing functional systems, whose components can be amplified and rearranged in new combinations. Competition for resources (purifying selection) serves to eliminate those novel system architectures that are not functional in the new ecology;
(4) once ecological stability has been achieved, natural genetic engineering functions are silenced, the tempo of innovation abates, and microevolution can occur to fine-tune recent evolutionary inventions through successions of minor changes.
It appears to me that he is saying that the suddent abrupt changes are nonrandom and performed by natural genetic engineering. Once that is finished then micro evolution, ie Darwinian evolution takes over.
Note he says "a distinctively 21st century scenario for evolutionary change."

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 Message 8 by Taq, posted 03-16-2011 11:18 AM Taq has replied

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 19 of 760 (609104)
03-16-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
03-16-2011 2:22 PM


Re: Pretty much an irrelevant question.
jar writes;
If and when there is enough evidence for others to take Shapiro seriously, it's possible that the Theory will change again, but never to the extent that Intelligent Design or Special Creation will be more than stuff to laugh about.
He is talking about natural genetic engineering that is nonrandom as I point out in reply to message 8 by taq.
If in fact the theory does change in accord with Shapiro and others who are researching about a 21st century theory of evolution that does not rely on random mutation, but rather information in the cell that engineers change then Special Creation will become something that Science will have to deal with.

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Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 22 of 760 (609109)
03-16-2011 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by NoNukes
03-16-2011 3:55 PM


Re: Puzzled
NoNukes writes;
'Driven' implies way more determinism than Shapiro suggests. Non random is not the opposite of completely determined by. Is Shapiro saying anything more that that some mutations may have a greater likelihood than others? Does that even translate to a greater likelihood of a beneficial mutation occurring relative to a given environment.
Shapiro "Revisiting the Central Dogma in the 21st Century" writes:
Genome System Architecture
By flexible analogy with electronic information-
processing systems, we need to recognize
that every genome has a system architecture
which makes it possible for cells to access
and utilize the information stored there. It has
been argued elsewhere that each genome serves
as a read-write (RW) memory system on multiple
time scales:24,138
1. Within the cell cycle by adjustment of
DNA binding protein complexes;
2. Over several cell cycles by chromatin reformatting;
3. Over evolutionary time by natural genetic
engineering.
As with electronic systems, different system
architecturesmay accomplish similar functions.
Thus genomes may differ in their functional
architectures from one taxonomic group to
another. The idea of genome system architecture
facilitating information utilization can
be applied to thinking about existing genomes
and also to the potential for generating novel
genomes in the face of inevitable but unpredictable
challenges.
When he talks about system architecture and read write memory systems this is not random and is as close to deterministic as you can get without using the word.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 34 of 760 (609213)
03-17-2011 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taq
03-16-2011 5:26 PM


Re: Puzzled
taq writes;
What is not random? Chromatin binding? DNA binding complexes? Protein-DNA interactions? DNA methylation? What specifically is not random?
If you will recall in the thread "potential falsifications " I e-mailed Shaprio and his whole answer is on that thread.
In my first question to him I asked:
Has Natural Genetic Engineering, changed the modern Darwinian theory of evolution as we know it today?
He answered.
"Of course. Going from random accidents to regulated biochemical systems as the source of genetic variation is a fundamental change. It allows us to understand how outside events can trigger change (see table in my 2006 'genome informatics' article), makes it clear how combinatorial change can occur using established adaptive components (e.g. protein domains, regulatroy modules), and provides a way to investigate what kind of heuristic guidance may be operating in genome change."
Shapiro seem to be very specific in his choice of words and is a highly regarded professional. When he uses the phrase "going from random accidents to regulated biochemical systems" and "heuristic guidance", which to me means they may be discovering or learning something for themselves., leads me to the conclusion that the whole process is nonrandom.
He was also asked "When you use the term sentient do you mean that the cells are capable of making decisions that affect their evolution?"
He replied;
Yes, such as when they activate mobile elements in response to DNA damage, starvation or interspecific hybridization.
So I am of the opinion that he is proposing a system of decision making in the cells that go beyond nonrandom mutation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taq, posted 03-16-2011 5:26 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 35 of 760 (609217)
03-17-2011 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
03-16-2011 6:12 PM


Re: Pretty much an irrelevant question.
jar wrote;
Fortunately, it is simply that you totally misunderstand what he is saying and Special Creation will never be more 5than a joke and something for Christian con men to use to keep the gold coming in.
If you will recall Shapiro told me in his reply to me e-mail, "You have understood my position pretty well..." So perhaps you can enlighten me on what I am missing.
I assume your comment on Special Creation is based upon some scientific finding, and I don't believe all who do have faith in Special Creation, in my case as per the theology of the Roman Catholic Church, are all "con" men.

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 Message 25 by jar, posted 03-16-2011 6:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 37 of 760 (609224)
03-17-2011 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Adequate
03-16-2011 8:51 PM


Dr Adequate writes;
This is a false dichotomy. You can talk about "information in the cell" all you want; but the fact remains that the changes are made to an actual physical sequence of DNA in accordance with the laws of chemistry.
I agreeThe changes are made to an actual physical sequence of DNA in accordance wtih the laws of chemistry.
What Shapiro and others are trying to determine is what is causing the changes to be made and how does that system of engineering or information sharing work.
It is interesting that Darwin knew nothing of Genetics, and that Ernst Mayr in his 2001 book "What is Evolution" said it was difficult to understand the great amount of non-coding DNA that was thought to be 95% and he found it difficult to belive that selection would not have been able to get rid of it if it was totally useless.
Mayr was correct, it was not totally useless, and today scientists today such as John Mattick are saying that genomic non-proteincoding sequences are contolling gene expression at many levels.
So the more that is being discovered about information in the cell, the more probable is that the cells have information coded properties that are playing a major role in evolution.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 39 of 760 (609255)
03-17-2011 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
03-17-2011 2:56 PM


Re: Pretty much an irrelevant question.
jar writes;
Not all that support Special Creation are con men, most are simply the suckers that get conned.
There is NO evidence of any outside non-natural influence or guidance.
That is a distrubing message. Is it your view that anyone who belives in God, that God has a hand in creation, is getting conned?
As for any evidence of non-natural influence or guidance, of course it cannot be proven under a microscope, but one only need look at the Universe, and the wonder of life, and deduce how did this happen?
I would hope you would meditate on these issues and at least consider that there may be an influence that science cannot prove by physical evidence.
I know this message is off post.
That is my last sermon and I truely don't want to argue religion or faith with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 03-17-2011 2:56 PM jar has replied

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 40 of 760 (609256)
03-17-2011 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
03-17-2011 5:32 PM


No Nukes writes;
What's the tie in to special creation? What is the evidence that any cellular element, including a genetic engineering facility, is not the product of evolution? After all, Shapiro does acknowledge that random mutation does occur.
That is the probably the question that will never be answered by physical evidence. One will have to meditate on the question and decide for him or herself.
All I am saying right now in this post is that Scientists are questioning the modern theory of evolution. That there is more to it than mechanical physical, chemical events that have made evolution as we know it today.
Where the information and sentience came from may never be known unless we can find out the Origin of Life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2011 5:32 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 46 of 760 (609299)
03-18-2011 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
03-17-2011 10:12 PM


Re: Modification or replacement
No Nukes writes;
Shapiro is questioning some aspects of the modern theory of evolution. The question is exactly what the scope of those questions are. I think you overstate them a bit.
If information is stored in the cell, it is stored in chemical/mechanical structures and is accessed by known processes. In fact Shapiro talks about natural genetic engineering processes that are identical in nature to other processes known to be carried out in cells.
Besides, you've already said more. Are you now backing away from this statement:
I don't know if I am overstating Shaprio's position.
What I am saying is that the chemical/mechanical functions are known, but how and why the information, that Shapiro calls natural genetic engineering, works to have the cell perform those functions is where the new, modified, replaced theory will be discovered.
NoNukes writes;
Besides, you've already said more. Are you now backing away from this statement:
Not sure what you mean by that statment.

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 47 of 760 (609302)
03-18-2011 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Wounded King
03-18-2011 5:37 AM


Wounded King writes;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shadow, you have to get out of this revisionist genetic history of yours. Mayr's book may have been published in 2001 but the position he was discounting was one that hadn't been current for decades.
All I was trying to point out is that Darwin's theory has changed substantially since Darwin published it, as has the modern synthesis theory.
When the modern synthesis was declared the leaders of that revision of the theory were very certain that they were correct.
I am now saying that perhaps a whole new look has to be taken to determine what, if any impact, the information, communciation discoveries will take evolution in the future.
NoNukes wriites;
In fact it seems to me quite remarkable that within 30 years of those earliest sequencing technologies having been developed, when sequencing 24 base pairs was an achievement, we had the publication of the first draft Human Genome sequences in 2001.
I agree, and that is why I think all should keep an open mind as to where the Information, communciation, sentience in the cell theories may take us.
I have my opinions as to what we are going to find out, but those are my opinons are of course are not fact.
When I practiced trial law it was important to learn every word each witness would say at trial, what all the evidence would be, and to then try to lead the jury to the truth as to what the evicence showed.
In my cases it was always "what caused the serious injury or death of this person". Was it negligence by the Dr. or was it merely a bad outcome. We relied on experts to tell the jury their opinions based on all the medicine involved in the case.
That is what I am trying to do here.
I have been reading and trying to digest what all the papers are revealing and then trying to reach an opinion as to where they are leading in re evolution.
Obvioulsy I have a bias, as do all of us on this board, but I try to look at the evidence objectively, as I hope all will also do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Wounded King, posted 03-18-2011 5:37 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 57 of 760 (609452)
03-20-2011 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
03-17-2011 7:24 PM


Re: Pretty much an irrelevant question.
jar writes;
Actually I am a devout Christian and yes, I firmly believe that anyone that believes in Special Creation is either getting conned or if they claim to be a scientist or educated, a con man. Of course there can also be a few that are simply insane.
What can I say? Could you please defineyour meaning of "Special Creation?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 03-17-2011 7:24 PM jar has replied

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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 59 of 760 (609454)
03-20-2011 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Wounded King
03-18-2011 10:48 AM


Wounded King writes;
Really? Doesn't that make this whole thread rather pointless then since the current evolutionary synthesis is already a substantially revised form of Darwinian theory and incorporates these discoveries? The only thing that will tell us where these will lead in the future is time.
What I am saying is that the information, communciation, sentience research is different from the modern synthesis in that there is direction rather then random mutation, and Shapiro says he defines "selection" as "purfiying" selection.
The definition I found for purfying or negative selection is the selective removal of alleles thar are deleterious.
If that is so, how can one define that type of selection as anything but directed or purpose caused?
So this is more than a revision of the modern synthesis, it is an invalidation of the theory.
Wounded King continues;
Sadly your approach seems to tend strongly towards the leading and to be very light on the evidence.You seem much happier throwing quotes from Mayr, Mattick and Shapiro at us than actually presenting any evidence to support the claims you are deriving from what they say. What should anybody care exactly what Shapiro himself means by non-random if the evidence does not support the interpretation of it you are using?
The evidence I am providing is the work of experts in the field. I as a non scientist cannot provide the nutsl and bolts of the workings of the cell, but rather provide the evidence of the experts in the field.
I have no doubt that Shapiro, based upon his CV, would qualify as an expert in microbiology.
So the quotes from Mary, Mattick and Shaprio are indeed very strong evidence, that I have provided.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Wounded King, posted 03-18-2011 10:48 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
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