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Author Topic:   How Does Republican Platform Help Middle Class?
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 440 (610271)
03-28-2011 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
03-28-2011 10:23 PM


Re: Short sighted?
Coyote writes:
How does cutting taxes and cutting social programs help?
How does raising taxes and expanding social programs help when we are already more trillions of dollars in debt than even our grandchildren can pay?
By allowing us to actually invest in things that will benefit future generations.
The debt is not a major problem. The fact that much of it was simply wasted by truly stupid decisions is, but that is in the past and so now we will suffer from past stupid behavior.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 3 by Coyote, posted 03-28-2011 10:23 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Coyote, posted 03-28-2011 10:46 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 440 (610275)
03-28-2011 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coyote
03-28-2011 10:46 PM


Re: Short sighted?
Coyote writes:
jar writes:
Coyote writes:
How does cutting taxes and cutting social programs help?
How does raising taxes and expanding social programs help when we are already more trillions of dollars in debt than even our grandchildren can pay?
By allowing us to actually invest in things that will benefit future generations.
The debt is not a major problem. The fact that much of it was simply wasted by truly stupid decisions is, but that is in the past and so now we will suffer from past stupid behavior.
Sorry to have to break this news to you, but the government does not create or produce anything. The most it can do is take money from those who do produce and create, add a huge overhead, and then spend that money--wasting much of it on things that are more often contrary to the free market system.
Example: the Volt. If there was a market for that new-age Edsel there would be no need for government subsidies or coersion. The market would have developed it and run with it long ago.
Socialism is not the answer to our problems. How long do you think the folks who actually create and produce things will continue to do so when most of what they create and produce is taken away by force and given to those who do neither? That's the flaw in your system.
Utter crap. Sorry but that is not even close to reasonable.
The purpose of a government is to see to the common weal, and to act as the 100 ton gorilla that oversees and moderates the disease called capitalism.
Governments do produce, they produced the road systems, the rail systems, the communication systems. The produced the welfare system and social safety nets.
Today taxes are way too low and we need to return to a progressive tax structure, increase inheritance taxes and return to some regulated utility monopolies.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 440 (610362)
03-29-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Coyote
03-28-2011 11:34 PM


Re: Socialism?
No one is recommending a planned economy, or complete socialism, so you really need to stop creating fantasies and alleging they were suggested by others.
Just as with governance itself, there needs to be a system of checks and balances. As Teddy Roosevelt said, the private rights end where the public rights begin.
Systems that use a judicious mixture of capitalism and socialism exist, and seem to work pretty well, better in fact than the US in many ways.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 60 of 440 (610505)
03-30-2011 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Taq
03-30-2011 1:09 PM


Re: What is it Good For...?
Taq writes:
What I find particularly disappointing is how little the Democrat platform actually seeks to help the middle class.
Going back to the period where Dems were trying to pass the Affordable Care Act, I remember many of them stating outright that they would much rather see a single payer system. However, they admitted that supporting such a bill would be political suicide which is completely true. Even the baby steps towards a more equitable health care system that are found in the ACA that passed probably cost the Dems seats.
So why is this? From what I have seen the Republicans are able to spin reality in their favor. When you actually look at Republican policies there is nothing that that even remotely helps the middle class, and yet they are able to get a lot of votes from teh middle class. Why is that? It is because Republicans create a boogeyman that is even scarier than their policies. They are able to portray Dems as evil communists who want to force abortions on you while preventing you from going to church. Oh, and take your guns away too. Don't forget that. They tell the "big lie" and get away with it.
The reason is really very simple and was outlined by Newt Gingrich years ago.
The party that is successful in getting a a single payer universal health care system in place is very likely to dominate the political scene for at least two generations, just as the Democrats did under FDR and Truman when they passed the bulk of the social safety net provisions.
This is why the Democrats defeated the idea when put forward by Nixon and the Republican defeated the idea under Clinton.
It is all about power.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Rahvin, posted 03-30-2011 1:35 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 440 (610510)
03-30-2011 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Rahvin
03-30-2011 1:35 PM


Re: What is it Good For...?
I wish I could find it. It was back when he was still minority whip or maybe after he became speaker.
It may have been William Kristol that originated the idea.
From the Online NewsHour:
quote:
December 2, 1993 - Leading conservative operative William Kristol privately circulates a strategy document to Republicans in Congress. Kristol writes that congressional Republicans should work to "kill" -- not amend -- the Clinton plan because it presents a real danger to the Republican future: Its passage will give the Democrats a lock on the crucial middle-class vote and revive the reputation of the party. Nearly a full year before Republicans will unite behind the "Contract With America," Kristol has provided the rationale and the steel for them to achieve their aims of winning control of Congress and becoming America's majority party. Killing health care will serve both ends. The timing of the memo dovetails with a growing private consensus among Republicans that all-out opposition to the Clinton plan is in their best political interest. Until the memo surfaces, most opponents prefer behind-the-scenes warfare largely shielded from public view. The boldness of Kristol's strategy signals a new turn in the battle. Not only is it politically acceptable to criticize the Clinton plan on policy grounds, it is also politically advantageous. By the end of 1993, blocking reform poses little risk as the public becomes increasingly fearful of what it has heard about the Clinton plan.
Source
More direct from the Kristol memo:
quote:
But the Clinton proposal is also a serious political threat to the Republican Party. Republicans must therefore clearly understand the political strategy implicit in the Clinton plan--and then adopt an aggressive and uncompromising counterstrategy designed to delegitimize the proposal and defeat its partisan purpose.
Edited by jar, : add qualifier
Edited by jar, : more information.
Edited by jar, : fix formatting
Edited by jar, : add link for source
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 440 (610531)
03-30-2011 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Jon
03-30-2011 7:43 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Jon writes:
One can only imagine what a 50% decrease in fatal ischemic heart disease would do to health care costs in the U.S.!
Jon
It can only raise healthcare costs. The person that dies from a fatal heart attack will no longer incur health care costs.
But yes, proactive can be cost effective.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 03-30-2011 8:32 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 440 (610534)
03-30-2011 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Theodoric
03-30-2011 8:32 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Even if that were true, it is a one time cost. Someone that lives longer is a continuing expense.
My point is that planing by sound bite is seldom a good idea.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 440 (610562)
03-31-2011 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 9:50 AM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Phage0070 writes:
hooah212002 writes:
Because I'm not a taxpayer, right?
That isn't the service which your taxes pay for. If they did, guess what? You "wouldn't be able to afford it".
I'm sorry but that is complete BULLSHIT.
All First World Nations' health care is paid for primarily through taxes and yes, their citizens can afford it. Most Second World Nations other than the US also fund healthcare through taxes.
And almost all of them have better healthcare than the US.
You need to stop misrepresenting the facts.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 73 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 9:50 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 440 (610564)
03-31-2011 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 12:17 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Phage0070 writes:
jar writes:
All First World Nations' health care is paid for primarily through taxes and yes, their citizens can afford it.
If you had been paying any attention you would see that was my point from the start: He *could* afford healthcare insurance he just didn't want to. He had to give up too many other things to make the payments so he chose to try to misuse a public service and was rightly scolded by a professional at the ER.
The professional at the ER was neither professional or right.
He could not afford insurance because the health care insurance system is made intentionally too expensive.
If you read what I posted, it was criticizing your fallacious remark that a single payer system paid through taxes would be beyond what he could afford.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 84 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:17 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:33 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 440 (610575)
03-31-2011 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 12:33 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Phage0070 writes:
jar writes:
If you read what I posted, it was criticizing your fallacious remark that a single payer system paid through taxes would be beyond what he could afford.
This seems reasonable, given that he could afford it before but claimed otherwise. *IF* he truly wasn't able to afford healthcare before then getting it from him through taxes wouldn't solve the issue. He would be a burden on other taxpayers.
Now you might want to argue that people unable to afford healthcare should be cared for by placing their financial burden on others, but again I maintain that he wasn't one of those people. He could afford healthcare but chose not to. If taxation to fulfill healthcare desires was enacted he would be rendered unacceptably poor which he seems to translate into "can't afford".
Therefore in his own bizarre terminology he "couldn't afford" such a system.
Do you like making up your own version of what people say?
Getting health care through a system of taxation DOES solve the problem, he would have had health care provided.
It really is that simple.
The fact is that Health Care for all citizens and others living in the US is both a security concern and in our enlightened self interest.
A tax supported Single Payer system that cuts out ALL health insurance except for elective procedures and single private hospital rooms should be the minimal standard if the US hopes to join the group of First World Nations.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 440 (610850)
04-02-2011 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by marc9000
04-02-2011 9:46 PM


marc9000 writes:
The title says it all. How does the Republican platform help the middle class?
Why does the middle class need help (government help) today? It wasn’t getting it, (or asking for it, as far as I know) 50, or 100, or 150 years ago. Why is today different?
Mainly because we decided to remove the support systems that were in place 50, 100 and 150 years ago.
marc9000 writes:
How does cutting taxes and cutting social programs help? How does repealing a law that prevents insurance companies from revoking insurance for sick kids help the middle class? How does banning abortions help the middle class? How does the fight against labor unions improve the middle class?
There’s no evidence that increasing taxes/social programs, government impositions on private business, special rights for labor unions, and erosions of morality help anything in the long run. Maybe temporarily for some, but never permanently for all. When productivity is taxed, there is less of it. When non-productivity is rewarded, there is more of it. I believe that’s a Reagan paraphrase.
It is a shame that Reagan was not impeached while in office and then tried as a traitor, and in addition face civil criminal charges once he got out of prison.
And before you try play some silly Liberal or Democrat charge, I am a Republican and Conservative.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by dwise1, posted 04-02-2011 10:06 PM jar has replied
 Message 150 by bluescat48, posted 04-03-2011 1:45 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 147 of 440 (610855)
04-02-2011 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by dwise1
04-02-2011 10:06 PM


Well, Nixon was actually a pretty good President for the US and the middle class but he was paranoid and ruthless as well.
Remember he established the Environmental Protection Agency.
He sat down with other Nations we considered enemies and talked to them.
He tried to get Universal Health Care and a Guaranteed Minimum Household Income established.
He pushed through the EPA and expansion of the Endangered Species Act.
Nixon was the President that pushed through indexing Social Security for inflation.
He created Supplemental Security Income.
He created the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, forced funding for the Legacy Parks Program.
He pushed through the Philadelphia Plan that forced government contracts to include hiring of minority workers.
During his Administration he created the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the Office of Minority Business Enterprise and abolished the last of the Gold Standard.
He was also the first President to have daily press briefings.
Some other incidents during his Administration were pushing through the 55 MPH speed limit to cut gas consumption, putting wage and price controls in place during a recessionary period, and impounded billions of dollars from bills that he considered pork barrel.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 151 of 440 (610880)
04-03-2011 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by dwise1
04-02-2011 11:07 PM


The GOP
The Grand Old Party has a long history of being supportive of the middle class. Remember that the reason the South was a Democratic stronghold for so long was that the Republicans were seen as being for them "Uppity Black folk".
Teddy Roosevelt was the President that first made big Corporations sit down and negotiate with labor, that busted trusts, that built the Park System, that said individual rights end where public rights begin.
Ike, with all his flaws, clearly saw the duty of Government to be the 900 pound gorilla that stood between rampant capitalism and the general public.
What happened though was a coup where the Christian Right totally took over a party and turned the Republican Party into a theocratic one.
BUT look at what Reagan did to California as Governor. The best education system in the world simply got thrown away.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin and left out said

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 152 of 440 (610882)
04-03-2011 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by bluescat48
04-03-2011 1:45 AM


bluescat48 writes:
I am not doubting that you are a conservative, but just what would you call the so called conservatives that are running your party at this time?
If you look at the classic definitions, they are modern Fascists; corporatist, highly nationalistic, strongly opposed to socialism and communism, favoring one religion, supporting order over all.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 163 of 440 (610934)
04-03-2011 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by crashfrog
04-03-2011 7:57 PM


crashfrog writes:
Well, whatever. Of course the conservative project has always been one about telling other people what they can and can't do with their land, with their water, or with their bodies.
Well, not always. Only since the Christian Cult of Ignorance coup.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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