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Author Topic:   How Does Republican Platform Help Middle Class?
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 61 of 440 (610509)
03-30-2011 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
03-30-2011 1:15 PM


Re: What is it Good For...?
The reason is really very simple and was outlined by Newt Gingrich years ago.
The party that is successful in getting a a single payer universal health care system in place is very likely to dominate the political scene for at least two generations, just as the Democrats did under FDR and Truman when they passed the bulk of the social safety net provisions.
This is why the Democrats defeated the idea when put forward by Nixon and the Republican defeated the idea under Clinton.
It is all about power.
Jar, do you have a source for that quote? Just curious, I'd like to have a source before I start repeating that one.
That said, it's historically true that successful major social programs will gain a party significant public favor, so I don;t exactly doubt the accuracy.
Wouldn't it be nice if we lived in fantasy la-la-land, where politicians cared more about helping the people they represent than whether they'll still be in Congress in four years? If we had enough reps willing to fall on their swords to get a single-payer option passed, and if it was successful, we'd all be better off in the medium and long term even if those reps saw a short-term conservative smear campaign.
Oh well. That's just fantasy. On the positive side, at least health care facts have been floating around more than they used to. Statistics showing the inferiority of the US system are now passed around at Starbucks and are all over the internet; younger generations are being exposed to the idea that, maybe the US isn't so exceptional, maybe we don't do everything better just because AMERICA FUCK YEAH, maybe we can learn lessons from other nations.
I wish we had billboards every 50 miles on every freeway in the country listing the per-capita costs of healthcare, the infant mortality rate, and so on in Canada vs the US.
At least insurers can no longer deny coverage for pre-existing conditions. That will save lives - if I hadn't been able to put her on my insurance as a domestic partner, it would have saved my girlfriend's life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 03-30-2011 1:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 440 (610510)
03-30-2011 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Rahvin
03-30-2011 1:35 PM


Re: What is it Good For...?
I wish I could find it. It was back when he was still minority whip or maybe after he became speaker.
It may have been William Kristol that originated the idea.
From the Online NewsHour:
quote:
December 2, 1993 - Leading conservative operative William Kristol privately circulates a strategy document to Republicans in Congress. Kristol writes that congressional Republicans should work to "kill" -- not amend -- the Clinton plan because it presents a real danger to the Republican future: Its passage will give the Democrats a lock on the crucial middle-class vote and revive the reputation of the party. Nearly a full year before Republicans will unite behind the "Contract With America," Kristol has provided the rationale and the steel for them to achieve their aims of winning control of Congress and becoming America's majority party. Killing health care will serve both ends. The timing of the memo dovetails with a growing private consensus among Republicans that all-out opposition to the Clinton plan is in their best political interest. Until the memo surfaces, most opponents prefer behind-the-scenes warfare largely shielded from public view. The boldness of Kristol's strategy signals a new turn in the battle. Not only is it politically acceptable to criticize the Clinton plan on policy grounds, it is also politically advantageous. By the end of 1993, blocking reform poses little risk as the public becomes increasingly fearful of what it has heard about the Clinton plan.
Source
More direct from the Kristol memo:
quote:
But the Clinton proposal is also a serious political threat to the Republican Party. Republicans must therefore clearly understand the political strategy implicit in the Clinton plan--and then adopt an aggressive and uncompromising counterstrategy designed to delegitimize the proposal and defeat its partisan purpose.
Edited by jar, : add qualifier
Edited by jar, : more information.
Edited by jar, : fix formatting
Edited by jar, : add link for source
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 63 of 440 (610518)
03-30-2011 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by anglagard
03-29-2011 2:39 AM


Re: Socialism?
Objectivism
Ding!
Ann Ryn, Andrew Ryan and Richard Rhaal would be proud.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 64 of 440 (610520)
03-30-2011 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Rahvin
03-30-2011 1:35 PM


Re: What is it Good For...?
At least insurers can no longer deny coverage for pre-existing conditions. That will save lives - if I hadn't been able to put her on my insurance as a domestic partner, it would have saved my girlfriend's life.
Yes they can: for at least another year. My ex-gf looked into getting off of BadgerCare (WI state health care) and was told by numerous insurance companies that she was too overweight to get a policy. She, having voted for Obama, knew about the health care legislation. She was reminded repeatedly that it doesn't wholly take effect until 2012. However, I have read *some* stories about people who normally wouldn't qualify for pre-existing conditions who were able to get coverage.
Edited by hooah212002, : spelling

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 440 (610530)
03-30-2011 7:43 PM


Proactive Health Care
A lot of the talk about health care involves discussion about doctors, clinics, hospitals, etc. However, a truly universal health care program mustn't simply be a reactive institution, where problems are only treated after they've developed; but must also be a proactive institution, involving public education and awareness of personal health, as well as legislation and taxes to better regulate the kinds of foods and products that people consume.
quote:
Wikipedia on Trans fat:
Denmark became the first country to introduce laws strictly regulating the sale of many foods containing trans fats in March 2003, a move which effectively bans partially hydrogenated oils. The limit is 2% of fats and oils destined for human consumption. It should be noted that this restriction is on the ingredients rather than the final products. This regulatory approach has made Denmark the only country in which it is possible to eat "far less" than 1 g of industrially produced trans fats on a daily basis, even with a diet including prepared foods.[78] It is hypothesized that the Danish government's efforts to decrease trans fat intake from 6g to 1g per day over 20 years is related to a 50% decrease in deaths from ischemic heart disease.[79]
When looking at other countries and their health coverage vs. cost data, I do not think we should leave out such legislation as that in Denmark and other progressive countries. One can only imagine what a 50% decrease in fatal ischemic heart disease would do to health care costs in the U.S.!
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 440 (610531)
03-30-2011 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Jon
03-30-2011 7:43 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Jon writes:
One can only imagine what a 50% decrease in fatal ischemic heart disease would do to health care costs in the U.S.!
Jon
It can only raise healthcare costs. The person that dies from a fatal heart attack will no longer incur health care costs.
But yes, proactive can be cost effective.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 67 of 440 (610533)
03-30-2011 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
03-30-2011 8:02 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
It can only raise healthcare costs. The person that dies from a fatal heart attack will no longer incur health care costs.
Not necessarily. Do you have any idea how much effort is used(wasted) in the US to bring back someone that is effectively dead? I imagine a heart attack, even fatal, incurs a huge amount of costs.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 440 (610534)
03-30-2011 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Theodoric
03-30-2011 8:32 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Even if that were true, it is a one time cost. Someone that lives longer is a continuing expense.
My point is that planing by sound bite is seldom a good idea.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 69 of 440 (610535)
03-30-2011 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Jon
03-30-2011 7:43 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
a truly universal health care program mustn't simply be a reactive institution, where problems are only treated after they've developed;
If I read this right (correct me if I'm headed in the wrong direction), this is, IMO, one of the single greatest factors of going to universal health care. Individuals will be able to get their pre-emptive care in a regular facility instead of flooding the emergency room because they or their children are sick and they have no insurance because they can't afford it. Yes, I myself have had to take my son to the emergency room because of the fucking flu! (it was persistent and with fever. Small children and high fevers do NOT mix) due to the fact that I had no insurance. Guess what the ER doc told me: "I'm not a damn pediatrician, take him to your PCP tomorrow. Here's some tylenol".

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 70 of 440 (610542)
03-31-2011 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by hooah212002
03-30-2011 9:54 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
If I read this right (correct me if I'm headed in the wrong direction), this is, IMO, one of the single greatest factors of going to universal health care. Individuals will be able to get their pre-emptive care in a regular facility instead of flooding the emergency room because they or their children are sick and they have no insurance because they can't afford it. Yes, I myself have had to take my son to the emergency room because of the fucking flu! (it was persistent and with fever. Small children and high fevers do NOT mix) due to the fact that I had no insurance. Guess what the ER doc told me: "I'm not a damn pediatrician, take him to your PCP tomorrow. Here's some tylenol".
Disgusting.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 440 (610543)
03-31-2011 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by hooah212002
03-30-2011 9:54 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
hooah212002 writes:
Individuals will be able to get their pre-emptive care in a regular facility instead of flooding the emergency room because they or their children are sick and they have no insurance because they can't afford it.
I don't believe you.
There are some people out there who truly can't afford healthcare insurance but you are not one of them. I am assuming you had a computer to post from at the time, even if it was terrible. You probably had a car, and I assume you were wearing one of several sets of clothing that you own. You probably also didn't live in the least expensive place or manner possible.
In other words, you *could* afford healthcare insurance except you made a cost-benefit comparison and determined that it was just too expensive to be "worth it". You would have to give up too many other things to afford the cost, so you chose not to.
Instead you think that you should be able to use a public service paid for in great part by taxpayers as a substitute; you want those insurance premiums that you dubbed "too expensive" to be paid for by other people who don't have a choice in the matter.
The ER doctor was perfectly correct: he/she wasn't your damn pediatrician. You should have bought health insurance and you chose not to, and you didn't want to pay the doctor's bills out of your own pocket (which some people can). Before you start to whine about how "children *deserve*" whatever you will have to explain why you chose not to provide your child with proper medical care.
That's really what it comes down to; your child had a need for medical care and you didn't provide for that need. You knew you couldn't afford the potential lump bill, but you didn't even set aside a smaller amount of funds in preparation. You completely ignored the problem in favor of sticking your hand in other people's pockets and you have the fucking gall to complain when an ER doctor calls you on the behavior.
*That* is what is disgusting.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 72 of 440 (610545)
03-31-2011 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 9:30 AM


Re: Proactive Health Care
There are some people out there who truly can't afford healthcare insurance but you are not one of them.
I'm glad you know my situation so well. I'm glad you know what kind of money I was making and how much insurance premiums would have cost me. You know so much about me that it's borderline creepy.
At the time, I was the sole bread winner supporting my girlfriend and 3 kids, paying 2 car payments, rent utilities, etc. Have you ever priced insurance premiums in WI? Likely not. Otherwise you wouldn't have made such a harsh generalization.
In other words, you *could* afford healthcare insurance except....
Except that I couldn't. Or if I could, we wouldn't eat or be able to clothe our children. Or have to walk the 50 miles it was to work.
Instead you think that you should be able to use a public service paid for in great part by taxpayers as a substitute; you want those insurance premiums that you dubbed "too expensive" to be paid for by other people who don't have a choice in the matter.
Because I'm not a taxpayer, right?
Your response is what is disgusting.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 440 (610547)
03-31-2011 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by hooah212002
03-31-2011 9:43 AM


Re: Proactive Health Care
hooah212002 writes:
Because I'm not a taxpayer, right?
That isn't the service which your taxes pay for. If they did, guess what? You "wouldn't be able to afford it".
And why exactly did you have 2 car payments? Why didn't you carpool together?

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 74 of 440 (610549)
03-31-2011 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 9:30 AM


Re: Proactive Health Care
There are some people out there who truly can't afford healthcare insurance but you are not one of them. I am assuming you had a computer to post from at the time, even if it was terrible. You probably had a car, and I assume you were wearing one of several sets of clothing that you own. You probably also didn't live in the least expensive place or manner possible.
In other words, you *could* afford healthcare insurance except you made a cost-benefit comparison and determined that it was just too expensive to be "worth it".
Just being able to afford a computer ($300), a low-end car ($170 a month payment), and rent at a decent apartment ($700 a month) and keep clothing on the back of you and your family hardly indicates such a surplus of income as to make family health insurance affordable, given that the mean family plan premium in the US is around $1200. I don't know of anybody who has enough fat in the budget to trim out another $1200, do you? (Maybe everyone you know is very wealthy. Most likely, everybody you know has the bulk of their insurance premiums paid for by someone else, like their employer.)
You completely ignored the problem in favor of sticking your hand in other people's pockets
What do you think insurance is, stupid?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 440 (610553)
03-31-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
03-31-2011 10:17 AM


Re: Proactive Health Care
crashfrog writes:
...the mean family plan premium in the US is around $1200.
OK? There are less expensive plans out there that have lesser coverage. Pointing out that I can't afford the cost of an average airplane doesn't mean I can't afford *any* airplane. Companies offer plans based on what the market desires, not some sort of arcane formula which will force the companies into offering products nobody can buy. If the average monthly payment for family health insurance is $1200 then apparently that is what the average family can and does pay.
Furthermore, you pointed out that renting a decent apartment at $700 a month was apparently worth more than obtaining health insurance. You could perhaps find a tiny terrible apartment at maybe $300 a month (a single room rat-trap probably) and not have to worry about your child dying to the flu. But no, a choice was made there.
crashfrog writes:
You completely ignored the problem in favor of sticking your hand in other people's pockets
What do you think insurance is, stupid?
Insurance is pooling a steady stream of income to offset a risk which can be mitigated by financial aid. Those who contribute are eligible to draw from the pooled funds should some relatively rare event occur. The entire system depends on most contributors not using as much money as they pay in, but rather offsetting the risk of a possible payment they wouldn't be able to cover on their own.
It isn't just sticking your hand into other people's pockets without contributing yourself. Crashfrog, you fucking moron.

This message is a reply to:
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