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Author Topic:   How Does Republican Platform Help Middle Class?
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 76 of 440 (610554)
03-31-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 9:30 AM


Re: Proactive Health Care
In other words, you *could* afford healthcare insurance except you made a cost-benefit comparison and determined that it was just too expensive to be "worth it". You would have to give up too many other things to afford the cost, so you chose not to.

Instead you think that you should be able to use a public service paid for in great part by taxpayers as a substitute; you want those insurance premiums that you dubbed "too expensive" to be paid for by other people who don't have a choice in the matter.

Yup, this is the Republican position alright: folk who want to be healthy should have to give up everything else they own (bankrupt themselves) in order to afford the care.

Jon


Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 9:30 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:07 PM Jon has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 77 of 440 (610555)
03-31-2011 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 9:30 AM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Instead you think that you should be able to use a public service paid for in great part by taxpayers as a substitute; you want those insurance premiums that you dubbed "too expensive" to be paid for by other people who don't have a choice in the matter.

Replace "insurance premiums" with "school tuition" and you have the public school system. Do you consider the public school system to be "disgusting"?

What I am interested in this thread is how Republican policies benefit the middle class. If the philosophy of the Republican part is based on the idea that it is disgusting to use taxes from those who are more well off to pay for expensive medical care for those in lower income brackets then I can only conclude that Republican polices are not favoring middle class families. This makes their claims regarding "family values" a bit hollow, IMO.

So why should middle income families vote for a political party that sees no value in making sure they can afford health care? Why should middle income voters support a party that is more concerned with protecting the wealth of the top 5%?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 9:30 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:12 PM Taq has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 440 (610557)
03-31-2011 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Jon
03-31-2011 12:01 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Jon writes:

Yup, this is the Republican position alright: folk who want to be healthy should have to give up everything else they own (bankrupt themselves) in order to afford the care.

So do you think its going to become magically less expensive if the government forces people to pay for it, or do you not realize that people who can't afford to buy health insurance now aren't going to be able to afford paying taxes which substitute for health insurance?

Or are you still just pitching the idea that other people should be forced to pay to keep you healthy?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Jon, posted 03-31-2011 12:01 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Jon, posted 03-31-2011 12:09 PM Phage0070 has responded
 Message 94 by Rahvin, posted 03-31-2011 12:41 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded
 Message 104 by hooah212002, posted 03-31-2011 1:33 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 440 (610558)
03-31-2011 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by hooah212002
03-30-2011 9:54 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
If I read this right (correct me if I'm headed in the wrong direction), this is, IMO, one of the single greatest factors of going to universal health care. Individuals will be able to get their pre-emptive care in a regular facility instead of flooding the emergency room because they or their children are sick and they have no insurance because they can't afford it.

That's certainly part of it, yes. But I was also thinking of other more basic things, such as eating more healthy foods, getting more exercise, avoiding excessive use of alcohol and other drugs, better safety measures in dangerous work-place environments, etc.

For example, in addition to simply outlawing entirely stupid poisonous additives to food (like trans fat), a 250% tax on 'junk food' (including McDonald's) could very likely ameliorate many of the country's health problems related to poor diets and nutrition.

Jon


Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by hooah212002, posted 03-30-2011 9:54 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 440 (610559)
03-31-2011 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 12:07 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Or are you still just pitching the idea that other people should be forced to pay to keep you healthy?

Public health is a public good.


Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:07 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:13 PM Jon has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 440 (610560)
03-31-2011 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Taq
03-31-2011 12:02 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Taq writes:

Replace "insurance premiums" with "school tuition" and you have the public school system. Do you consider the public school system to be "disgusting"?

Everyone contributes to the public school system and is eligible for the rewards of public education. On the other hand, most people pay for their own private health insurance and are not eligible to get equivalent care from the ER because that isn't what the ER is supposed to be doing.

A more appropriate analogy involving the school system would be someone demanding a college degree for free, because they "can't afford" to pay college tuition like everyone else.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Taq, posted 03-31-2011 12:02 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by hooah212002, posted 03-31-2011 12:35 PM Phage0070 has responded
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 03-31-2011 12:40 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 440 (610561)
03-31-2011 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Jon
03-31-2011 12:09 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Jon writes:

Or are you still just pitching the idea that other people should be forced to pay to keep you healthy?

Public health is a public good.

I would agree, so buy some fucking insurance. Any way you cut it you are not carrying your weight.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Jon, posted 03-31-2011 12:09 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Jon, posted 03-31-2011 12:39 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 440 (610562)
03-31-2011 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 9:50 AM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Phage0070 writes:

hooah212002 writes:

Because I'm not a taxpayer, right?

That isn't the service which your taxes pay for. If they did, guess what? You "wouldn't be able to afford it".

I'm sorry but that is complete BULLSHIT.

All First World Nations' health care is paid for primarily through taxes and yes, their citizens can afford it. Most Second World Nations other than the US also fund healthcare through taxes.

And almost all of them have better healthcare than the US.

You need to stop misrepresenting the facts.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 9:50 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:17 PM jar has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 440 (610563)
03-31-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
03-31-2011 12:15 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
jar writes:

All First World Nations' health care is paid for primarily through taxes and yes, their citizens can afford it.

If you had been paying any attention you would see that was my point from the start: He *could* afford healthcare insurance he just didn't want to. He had to give up too many other things to make the payments so he chose to try to misuse a public service and was rightly scolded by a professional at the ER.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 03-31-2011 12:15 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 03-31-2011 12:23 PM Phage0070 has responded
 Message 86 by hooah212002, posted 03-31-2011 12:32 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 440 (610564)
03-31-2011 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 12:17 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
Phage0070 writes:

jar writes:

All First World Nations' health care is paid for primarily through taxes and yes, their citizens can afford it.

If you had been paying any attention you would see that was my point from the start: He *could* afford healthcare insurance he just didn't want to. He had to give up too many other things to make the payments so he chose to try to misuse a public service and was rightly scolded by a professional at the ER.

The professional at the ER was neither professional or right.

He could not afford insurance because the health care insurance system is made intentionally too expensive.

If you read what I posted, it was criticizing your fallacious remark that a single payer system paid through taxes would be beyond what he could afford.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:17 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:33 PM jar has responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 86 of 440 (610565)
03-31-2011 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 12:17 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
He *could* afford healthcare insurance he just didn't want to.

And I said: how the fuck do you know what I can afford? Just because YOU can afford it doesn't mean everyone else can.


"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:17 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:37 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 440 (610566)
03-31-2011 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
03-31-2011 12:23 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
jar writes:

If you read what I posted, it was criticizing your fallacious remark that a single payer system paid through taxes would be beyond what he could afford.

This seems reasonable, given that he could afford it before but claimed otherwise. *IF* he truly wasn't able to afford healthcare before then getting it from him through taxes wouldn't solve the issue. He would be a burden on other taxpayers.

Now you might want to argue that people unable to afford healthcare should be cared for by placing their financial burden on others, but again I maintain that he wasn't one of those people. He could afford healthcare but chose not to. If taxation to fulfill healthcare desires was enacted he would be rendered unacceptably poor which he seems to translate into "can't afford".

Therefore in his own bizarre terminology he "couldn't afford" such a system.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 03-31-2011 12:23 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 03-31-2011 12:45 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1265 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 88 of 440 (610567)
03-31-2011 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 11:15 AM


Re: Proactive Health Care
OK? There are less expensive plans out there that have lesser coverage. Pointing out that I can't afford the cost of an average airplane doesn't mean I can't afford *any* airplane. Companies offer plans based on what the market desires, not some sort of arcane formula which will force the companies into offering products nobody can buy. If the average monthly payment for family health insurance is $1200 then apparently that is what the average family can and does pay.

Furthermore, you pointed out that renting a decent apartment at $700 a month was apparently worth more than obtaining health insurance. You could perhaps find a tiny terrible apartment at maybe $300 a month (a single room rat-trap probably) and not have to worry about your child dying to the flu. But no, a choice was made there.

Wow. You know, it's really, really easy to judge someone when you have no fucking idea what their financial situation was at the time. You don;t know how much he was making. You don't know how much his insurance premium would have been. You don't know the available rents in his area. You don;t know how old the kids were, why the wife wasn;t working, or why they had two car payments. You don;t even know why he didn;t get insurance from his employer.

And yet, despite your utter lack of any knowledge of the situation whatsoever, you're somehow able to play Captain Hindsight and tell him what he should have done, what he could have done, and tell him that his lack of insurance was a personal choice.

What an amazing gift you must have, to be able to make financial judgments without the use of any numbers whatsoever and without knowing even the most basic facts! Please, oh wise guru, tell me what I should be doing with my money! Clearly you don;t need to know my income, where I live, where I work, the number of dependents I have, or any other information, you can just tell me what I can do anyway!

I wonder what options are out here in the real world?

I just went to Bluecross.com and grabbed a quick quote for a family plan with 2 28-year-old parents and three children aged 5, 6, and 7. I have no idea the actual ages involved so I just made some up - but you shouldn't mind that, since you're making up all the numbers.

The absolute cheapest plan is $283. It has an $8000 deductible. Maternity costs are not covered at all (and having a baby is expensive). Everything is $0...after that $8000 deductible. Brand prescriptions aren't covered at all - have an illness that requires a new drug for treatment and doesn't have a generic available? There are lots of those...too bad though, not covered.

The rest of the financial picture is unknown, of course. 2 car payments, rent, supporting 3 kids, himself and his wife...that's pretty pricey. Where I live, the cheapest apartment you can get would be a $500/month studio...but it wouldn't be legal to have 3 kids in a tiny studio. For shitty apartments in crime-infested areas, you're looking at $800/month for a 2-bedroom, at least $900 for a 3. Food for three people? Well, my minimum monthly budged for food is $350 for two - but let's say he's a better/more frugal shopper than I am (good luck, I said minimum budget for a reason, NICE food comes out of the disposable budget) and say he can feed 5 people on $400. We'll say his power bill is the same as mine - that's another $150 on average. Two car payments and insurance? What, $400 for the two payments if they're inexpensive cars, plus another $200 for the insurance? He said it was 50 miles to work...so they'll be spending at least $100 on gas every month, even where gas is cheap.

SO, without any discretionary spending, we're looking at $2050/month...and we haven't even added in a phone or the health insurance or clothing or any sort of costs for the kids yet.

That's about $24,600 a year. The health insurance would add another $3420 per year...and that's with the absolute cheapest plan, and it assumes he never actually uses the coverage. Doctor visits, prescriptions, everything still costs more beyond just the premium.

I wonder how much he was making, take-home? I've made less than the $30,000 per year take-home that he would have needed to make just to keep the bare necessities running at several jobs.

Insurance is pooling a steady stream of income to offset a risk which can be mitigated by financial aid. Those who contribute are eligible to draw from the pooled funds should some relatively rare event occur. The entire system depends on most contributors not using as much money as they pay in, but rather offsetting the risk of a possible payment they wouldn't be able to cover on their own.

It isn't just sticking your hand into other people's pockets without contributing yourself. Crashfrog, you fucking moron.

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK TAXES ARE?

Your taxes support the fire department, and the police department, and the roads in your area, and schools, and a thousand other things necessary for modern living. You never actually use the vast majority of them. Everyone pays into fire/police protection, but they only get used rarely. Everyone pays into road maintenance, but you only drive on a small percentage of the roads you help pay for. Everyone pays into the public school system, even if you don;t have kids attending.

Society runs on having many people pay a little for things that benefit all of us.

Yet for some reason, assholes like you think that health care should be different. If your neighbor gets sick, you can catch it, same as a fire that threatens your neighbor can threaten your home. And of course there's that pesky moral issue - where not providing universal health care according to need instead of according to ability to pay means that you are literally condemning poor people to die simply for the crime of being poor. You're condemning people to choose between letting themselves die, or going to the doctor and saving their life only to owe massive debt for the rest of their lives.

And guess what tax-funded single-payer health care does? It saves money! It spreads the risk to everyone, everyone pays according to what they can actually afford with a progressive tax plan, and everyone is given care according to what they actually need instead of just what they can afford, just like the fucking police and fire department and schools. It lets the single-payer entity bargain for better drug prices. It lets the single-payer entity streamline health care costs and eliminate unnecessary redundancy - like having 4 competing hospitals from different insurers each with duplicated facilities like MRIs that barely get used.

Every other first-world nation spends less per-capita on health care than the US does, and with objectively better results. And, of course, they get to sleep at night knowing that their health care isn;t tied to their employment, that if they get laid off they don;t have just 6 months of expensive COBRA coverage until their out of luck. They get to sleep knowing that everyone in their nation has access to health care, regardless of abilitiy to pay, just like they all have access to police and fire protection.

And instead of trying to support a fiscally more responsible and ethically necessary single-payer plan, you instead lash out at someone who said he couldnt afford health care with assumptions pulled from nowhere but your own ass about his real ability to pay.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 11:15 AM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 89 of 440 (610568)
03-31-2011 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 12:12 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
A more appropriate analogy involving the school system would be someone demanding a college degree for free, because they "can't afford" to pay college tuition like everyone else.

So, access to health care is a privilege. Gotcha. Good ole amurrica. If you can't afford what I can: fuck you. If you can't get a decent job: fuck you. I got mines, you get yours, fuck you.


"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:12 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Phage0070, posted 03-31-2011 12:39 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 440 (610569)
03-31-2011 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by hooah212002
03-31-2011 12:32 PM


Re: Proactive Health Care
hooah212002 writes:

And I said: how the fuck do you know what I can afford? Just because YOU can afford it doesn't mean everyone else can.

Even if I grant that you seriously couldn't afford healthcare, you still have to make the case that you deserve something you can't afford.

Why did you have children if you couldn't afford to keep them healthy? Maybe you could feed, clothe, and house them but you claim that you cannot fully afford the cost.

You overextended yourself financially and for some reason expect other more fiscally prudent people to shoulder your self-inflicted burdens. Make your case for why they should, and make it a damn good one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by hooah212002, posted 03-31-2011 12:32 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by hooah212002, posted 03-31-2011 12:47 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded
 Message 97 by Taq, posted 03-31-2011 12:47 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
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