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Author Topic:   How Does Republican Platform Help Middle Class?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 136 of 440 (610681)
03-31-2011 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by New Cat's Eye
03-31-2011 5:47 PM


I also described two different types of "the unemployed".

No you didn't you just said that Illinois does not make people look for work but Missouri does. You have provided no evidence so your personal anecdote is worthless.

Have you gotten unemployment benefits in both states? If so why do you assume that the difference is because of a red state, blue state thing? That sure seems a lot like a huge leap to me. Maybe it was the particular person you dealt with. But probably has nothing to do with republican/democrat, even if it is true.

You're just looking for anything that might be an error on my part.

No. I am pointing out that your personal anecdotes have no weight.
You're not constructively discussing.

I think pointing out flaws in someones argument is very constructive.
This is why I think your an idiot.

Yet again your opinions mean nothing when we are discussing fact.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-31-2011 5:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 137 of 440 (610689)
03-31-2011 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by New Cat's Eye
03-31-2011 5:17 PM


I feel that the Democrats want to do more to get more to the less fortunate, but that they take all the choice in the matter out of my hands. I don't want to just throw my money in the general direction of the less fortunate. I like to have that decision myself as to who I'm helping because then I feel like I actually am helping.

This isn't exactly what I had in mind for the OP. I will get to your points in a second, so bear with me.

When I talk about the middle class I mean families that bring in 40-60k a year or singles who bring in 20-40k a year. Somewhere around there. I am NOT talking about bums on the street. I am talking about people who do have jobs and do go to work if there is work available. How are Republican policies helping these people? Are tax cuts to the rich helping? Are cuts in public education and social programs helping? Are massive tax cuts for people making 20 times more than these middle class families helping?

As to the "downtrodden", that's a tough one. It really is a different set of questions. Do we put federal guards at ER's to kick out people who can't afford care? That doesn't seem like the right thing to do. We are going to have to pay for that care somehow, even if it means hospitals have to charge more to those who can pay. Do we let people freeze to death on the streets? Do we not help out single mothers with rent so that they don't end up on the streets?

I see the left's approach as not offering any incentive to putting in the great effort that I have towards setting myself up so that I can do this on my own without aid. Further, its seems that they are rewarding not putting the effort in by making it easier to get help if you didn't make it.

Recently, the Republican policy was to cut unemployment even to those actively seeking work. Part of the compromise for the recent tax cuts was the extension of unemployment to those hit hard by the economic downturn. If it was left to just the Republicans we would have seen even deeper tax cuts for the wealthy and no extension of unemployment.

Do you support these types of cuts to social safety nets? It seems that you lean more towards judicious use of safety nets, am I wrong?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16087
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 138 of 440 (610694)
03-31-2011 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by New Cat's Eye
03-31-2011 5:19 PM


I don't think anyone is specifically trying to hurt me.

So ... I'm not following you ... why do you need Republicans to prevent them from doing so?


This message is a reply to:
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ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 139 of 440 (610697)
03-31-2011 7:51 PM


One thing.
Here's something that I haven't seen brought up in the discussion yet. As has been mentioned already, if you don't have insurance, then your only other choice for medical care is the emergency room. Well, guess what - it's much more expensive to treat someone in an emergency room than is in a regular care situation. If nothing else, it costs more when people put off getting care until the problem is so severe that they have to get medical help. And can someone tell me who has to pay for all these expensive emergency room visits by people who can't pay themselves?


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it. - John Stuart Mill


Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by hooah212002, posted 03-31-2011 8:10 PM ZenMonkey has responded
 Message 142 by Theodoric, posted 03-31-2011 8:44 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 140 of 440 (610698)
03-31-2011 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by ZenMonkey
03-31-2011 7:51 PM


Re: One thing.
That's the comment made by me that brought phage into this discussion.


"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-31-2011 7:51 PM ZenMonkey has responded

Replies to this message:
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ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 141 of 440 (610702)
03-31-2011 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by hooah212002
03-31-2011 8:10 PM


Re: One thing.
hooah212002 writes:

That's the comment made by me that brought phage into this discussion.

Ah, I must have forgotten about that part once I started getting pissed off at him telling you that it was your fault you weren't spending a third of your income on health insurance.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it. - John Stuart Mill


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by hooah212002, posted 03-31-2011 8:10 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 142 of 440 (610710)
03-31-2011 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by ZenMonkey
03-31-2011 7:51 PM


Re: One thing.
In small towns like mine it is the local tax payers.

The ultimate outcome of this is a third world nation. The wealthy suburban areas will keep a low to moderate tax burden, while rural and non-wealthy areas will see a huge local tax burden. Then services will be curtailed in the non-wealthy areas. This will lead to a huge increase in crime and poverty.

I spend some time in South Africa, I think that is what we will see USA resembling in a decade if we allow these policies to continue.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2271 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 143 of 440 (610731)
04-01-2011 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phage0070
03-31-2011 9:50 AM


Re: Proactive Health Care
And why exactly did you have 2 car payments? Why didn't you carpool together?

In my case I worked 40 miles away in one direction (south south east) and my wife 40 miles away in another direction (east north east) with no public transportation.

Edited by bluescat48, : missing line

Edited by bluescat48, : typ


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
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marc9000
Member
Posts: 965
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 144 of 440 (610849)
04-02-2011 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taq
03-28-2011 8:56 PM


The title says it all. How does the Republican platform help the middle class?

Why does the middle class need help (government help) today? It wasnt getting it, (or asking for it, as far as I know) 50, or 100, or 150 years ago. Why is today different?

How do major tax cuts to the top 5% of wage earners help the middle class?

It trickles down. That phrase has been made to sound evil by the left/Democrats/liberals, but it works.

How does cutting taxes and cutting social programs help? How does repealing a law that prevents insurance companies from revoking insurance for sick kids help the middle class? How does banning abortions help the middle class? How does the fight against labor unions improve the middle class?

Theres no evidence that increasing taxes/social programs, government impositions on private business, special rights for labor unions, and erosions of morality help anything in the long run. Maybe temporarily for some, but never permanently for all. When productivity is taxed, there is less of it. When non-productivity is rewarded, there is more of it. I believe thats a Reagan paraphrase.

How does the defunding of Planned Parenthood and the EPA help the middle class?

The EPA has possibly done more to destroy the middle class than any other single thing in the U.S. It imposes regulation that someone has to pay for, and the middle class always gets the bill. It destroys business, large and small, putting the middle class out of work.

How does a reduction in social security and medicare help the middle class?
What confuses me is how people like me (lower middle class) benefit from the laws and reforms that Republicans want to put in place. Can someone show me the light?

It really shouldnt be thought of as laws and reforms by Republicans, it should be thought of as an undoing of failed laws and reforms put in place by Democrats in the past, most of it the very recent past.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taq, posted 03-28-2011 8:56 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 440 (610850)
04-02-2011 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by marc9000
04-02-2011 9:46 PM


marc9000 writes:

The title says it all. How does the Republican platform help the middle class?

Why does the middle class need help (government help) today? It wasnt getting it, (or asking for it, as far as I know) 50, or 100, or 150 years ago. Why is today different?

Mainly because we decided to remove the support systems that were in place 50, 100 and 150 years ago.

marc9000 writes:

How does cutting taxes and cutting social programs help? How does repealing a law that prevents insurance companies from revoking insurance for sick kids help the middle class? How does banning abortions help the middle class? How does the fight against labor unions improve the middle class?

Theres no evidence that increasing taxes/social programs, government impositions on private business, special rights for labor unions, and erosions of morality help anything in the long run. Maybe temporarily for some, but never permanently for all. When productivity is taxed, there is less of it. When non-productivity is rewarded, there is more of it. I believe thats a Reagan paraphrase.

It is a shame that Reagan was not impeached while in office and then tried as a traitor, and in addition face civil criminal charges once he got out of prison.

And before you try play some silly Liberal or Democrat charge, I am a Republican and Conservative.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3310
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 146 of 440 (610852)
04-02-2011 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by jar
04-02-2011 9:52 PM


OK, I'm a Democrat. I registered back when the age to register dropped from 21 to 18. Nixon was in the White House, so I registered Democrat. No-brainer, eh?

I remember when Reagan instituted his big "tax reduction". At the time, I was lower-middle-class with an income around $33,000 per year. My taxes literally doubled! Ever since then, whenever the Republicans start talking about reducing taxes, I get very worried!


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 147 of 440 (610855)
04-02-2011 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by dwise1
04-02-2011 10:06 PM


Well, Nixon was actually a pretty good President for the US and the middle class but he was paranoid and ruthless as well.

Remember he established the Environmental Protection Agency.

He sat down with other Nations we considered enemies and talked to them.

He tried to get Universal Health Care and a Guaranteed Minimum Household Income established.

He pushed through the EPA and expansion of the Endangered Species Act.

Nixon was the President that pushed through indexing Social Security for inflation.

He created Supplemental Security Income.

He created the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, forced funding for the Legacy Parks Program.

He pushed through the Philadelphia Plan that forced government contracts to include hiring of minority workers.

During his Administration he created the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the Office of Minority Business Enterprise and abolished the last of the Gold Standard.

He was also the first President to have daily press briefings.

Some other incidents during his Administration were pushing through the 55 MPH speed limit to cut gas consumption, putting wage and price controls in place during a recessionary period, and impounded billions of dollars from bills that he considered pork barrel.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by dwise1, posted 04-02-2011 10:06 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3310
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 148 of 440 (610856)
04-02-2011 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by jar
04-02-2011 10:20 PM


Ooh, when was that?

I was 18, 19, or 20 at that time. Prime draft bait. I remember the KRLA (Los Angeles) "Credibility Gap" broadcasts of the Republican convention's death knowl of "Four more years, four more years."

Com'on! How were we to anticipate the total Republican assholes who were to follow him? (and keep in mind my absolute abhorance of that term, "asshole") ?


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 440 (610857)
04-02-2011 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by marc9000
04-02-2011 9:46 PM


It trickles down.

Why would it "trickle down"? How does that jive with the ample evidence that things trickle up, instead?

Theres no evidence that increasing taxes/social programs, government impositions on private business, special rights for labor unions, and erosions of morality help anything in the long run.

There's actually thirty years of evidence or more that strong social safety nets financed by progressive taxes, effective regulation, labor rights, and social justice actually do promote significant economic growth. Similarly there's about ten years of evidence that deregulation, union busting, and religious oppression are disastrous for the American economy.

I believe thats a Reagan paraphrase.

It wouldn't be the first thing he turned out to be dead wrong about.

. It imposes regulation that someone has to pay for, and the middle class always gets the bill.

You act like deregulation is free, but who pays for the polluted air and water?

And how do you square that with property rights? Surely you'd recognize that your property rights enjoin me from dumping thousands of pounds of burning garbage into your front lawn. Right? Isn't it a right you have, to not have nuisances and refuse dropped onto your land without your permission?

So why doesn't that right extend to your air and water? How do you square property rights with an untrammeled right of corporations to pollute land, air, and water that belongs to other people?

It destroys business, large and small, putting the middle class out of work.

There's zero evidence that unemployment is driven by environmental regulation. Our nation's high unemployment rate and declining wealth of the middle class is almost entirely due to a deregulated financial services sector.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by marc9000, posted 04-02-2011 9:46 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2271 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 150 of 440 (610861)
04-03-2011 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by jar
04-02-2011 9:52 PM


I am not doubting that you are a conservative, but just what would you call the so called conservatives that are running your party at this time?


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 04-02-2011 9:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 04-03-2011 10:18 AM bluescat48 has responded

    
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