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Author Topic:   How Does Republican Platform Help Middle Class?
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 256 of 440 (611349)
04-07-2011 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by jar
04-07-2011 11:44 AM


Re: Today's Republican Party is simply ignorant
Today's Republican Party is quite simply, ignorant; ignorant of reality, of history, of the meaning of words and their historic usage, of the very basis even of the Republican Party.
Is the con man ignorant, or is the ignorance found in those who are conned?
What the Republican party has done is package their message to distract people from the fact that their policies harm the middle class. Instead of allowing people to ponder the idea that socialism might actually help the middle class they throw out the red herrings of atheistic communisms, tax paid abortions, and welfare queens. It works not because Republican politicians are ignorant, but because their constituents are ignorant (or easily conned, take your pick).
A perusal of this thread will demonstrate this. When asked how the Republican party is helping the middle class the answer is that the GOP is fighting socialism. They never even stop to consider the fact that a certain amount of socialism is very beneficial to the middle class. The GOP has been allowed to demonize socialism so that people never stop to think if socialism would actually help them or not.
Both Democrats and Republicans want a limited government. The difference is the limitations they want to put in.
As a long time Republican I find that sad and pitiful; the Grand Old Party has been reduced to a mob with but one battle cry... "What's in it for me?"
Shouldn't we be asking that question with respect to public policy? You may be referring to a very narrow and myopic view in which case it is a fair criticism. However, I do believe that we would be better off if people did ask this question more often and if they demanded an answer that went beyond talking points and buzzwords.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 04-07-2011 11:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 04-07-2011 4:25 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 257 of 440 (611350)
04-07-2011 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by crashfrog
04-07-2011 1:25 PM


Re: Republican Platform is brainwashing
My claim throughout is that children, being human beings, have a right to not be brainwashed into dangerous and loathsome ideologies just because that's what their parents decided to do.
While I agree with the sentiment, I don't see how this could be implemented. Who decides which ideologies are allowed and not allowed? Do we start a Thought Police force? That doesn't sound double plus good.
Whether right or wrong, US law has sided on punishing actions instead of beliefs. While this may not be ideal, it may be the most practical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2011 1:25 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2011 4:27 PM Taq has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 258 of 440 (611352)
04-07-2011 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Taq
04-07-2011 4:10 PM


Re: Today's Republican Party is simply ignorant
Taq writes:
jar writes:
Today's Republican Party is quite simply, ignorant; ignorant of reality, of history, of the meaning of words and their historic usage, of the very basis even of the Republican Party.
Is the con man ignorant, or is the ignorance found in those who are conned?
The con man is smart enough to know that his audience wants to be fooled, and that they are too ignorant to know they are being conned.
Taq writes:
jar writes:
As a long time Republican I find that sad and pitiful; the Grand Old Party has been reduced to a mob with but one battle cry... "What's in it for me?"
Shouldn't we be asking that question with respect to public policy? You may be referring to a very narrow and myopic view in which case it is a fair criticism. However, I do believe that we would be better off if people did ask this question more often and if they demanded an answer that went beyond talking points and buzzwords.
No, being a citizen requires that we go beyond just what is good for "me", for the personal individual, and look towards what will be good for society. We are our brothers keepers.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Taq, posted 04-07-2011 4:10 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Taq, posted 04-07-2011 4:45 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 259 of 440 (611353)
04-07-2011 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Taq
04-07-2011 4:15 PM


Re: Republican Platform is brainwashing
Who decides which ideologies are allowed and not allowed?
Courts, based on what is in the child's best interest. (I think I've said this a few times already.)
You know, like we're already doing. I don't see how it's any more troublesome for enforcement than, say, a law against emotional abuse of a child.
Whether right or wrong, US law has sided on punishing actions instead of beliefs.
Brainwashing your child is certainly an action. Again, we're not talking about taking the children of racists away just because they're racists. We're talking about protecting children against being brainwashed with racist, violent ideologies. Am I the only one who can perceive the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Taq, posted 04-07-2011 4:15 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by 1.61803, posted 04-07-2011 4:36 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 263 by Taq, posted 04-07-2011 4:49 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 272 by ZenMonkey, posted 04-07-2011 6:08 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 301 by xongsmith, posted 04-08-2011 2:50 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 260 of 440 (611354)
04-07-2011 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by crashfrog
04-07-2011 4:27 PM


Re: Republican Platform is brainwashing
Hi Crash,
Crashfrog writes:
We're talking about protecting children against being brainwashed with racist, violent ideologies. Am I the only one who can perceive the difference?
It is a slippery slope. I certainly agree, but once society begins with this sort of policing, where does it end. Like freedom of speech is protected by the constitution, do we pass laws that limit what speech we can use in the home to children? I agree I think it is wrong to brain wash anyone, especially vunerable innocent children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2011 4:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2011 5:49 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 261 of 440 (611355)
04-07-2011 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by jar
04-07-2011 4:25 PM


Re: Today's Republican Party is simply ignorant
No, being a citizen requires that we go beyond just what is good for "me", for the personal individual, and look towards what will be good for society. We are our brothers keepers.
So we should be asking "What is in it for us?".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 04-07-2011 4:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 04-07-2011 4:56 PM Taq has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 262 of 440 (611356)
04-07-2011 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by crashfrog
04-07-2011 1:58 PM


Re: Republican Platform is brainwashing
crashfrog writes:
The example of the singing white supremacist twins featured rabid racist indoctrination of the most extreme sort; the judge had the option of removing the children from the households of both parents
The judge did not have that option. If it's your contention that he did, then by all means, present the evidence.
Yeah, judges actually do have the authority to appoint a guardian ad litem to represent the interests of minor children in divorce cases and award custody to a third party if the guardian recommends that.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2011 1:58 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 04-07-2011 4:54 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 263 of 440 (611358)
04-07-2011 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by crashfrog
04-07-2011 4:27 PM


Re: Republican Platform is brainwashing
Brainwashing your child is certainly an action.
Teaching your children is the action. Only when you disagree with what is taught do you call it brainwashing. When you claim that a child is being brainwashed you are making a moral judgement on what is taught, not on the action itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2011 4:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by crashfrog, posted 04-07-2011 5:53 PM Taq has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 264 of 440 (611359)
04-07-2011 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by subbie
04-07-2011 4:45 PM


Re: Republican Platform is brainwashing
Found a California order of preference reference.
quote:
3040. Order of preference
(a) Custody should be granted in the following order of preference according to the best interest of the child as provided in Sections 3011 and 3020:
(1) To both parents jointly pursuant to Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 3080) or to either parent. In making an order granting custody to either parent, the court shall consider, among other factors, which parent is more likely to allow the child frequent and continuing contact with the noncustodial parent, consistent with Section 3011 and 3020, and shall not prefer a parent as custodian because of that parent's sex. The court, in its discretion, may require the parents to submit to the court a plan for the implementation of the custody order.
(2) If to neither parent, to the person or persons in whose home the child has been living in a wholesome and stable environment.
(3) To any other person or persons deemed by the court to be suitable and able to provide adequate and proper care and guidance for the child.
(b) This section establishes neither a preference nor a presumption for or against joint legal custody, joint physical custody, or sole custody, but allows the court and the family the widest discretion to choose a parenting plan that is in the best interest of the child.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by subbie, posted 04-07-2011 4:45 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 265 of 440 (611360)
04-07-2011 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Taq
04-07-2011 4:45 PM


Re: Today's Republican Party is simply ignorant
And the "Us" should be expanded based on the specifics of the issue.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Taq, posted 04-07-2011 4:45 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Taq, posted 04-07-2011 5:04 PM jar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 266 of 440 (611361)
04-07-2011 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by jar
04-07-2011 4:56 PM


Re: Today's Republican Party is simply ignorant
And the "Us" should be expanded based on the specifics of the issue.
To bring this more in line with the OP . . .
From my own experience, no public policy is going to benefit everyone individually. There are always trade offs. So where do we draw the line? If raising the taxes of the top 10% benefits the other 90% is that allowable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 04-07-2011 4:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 04-07-2011 5:09 PM Taq has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 267 of 440 (611362)
04-07-2011 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Taq
04-07-2011 5:04 PM


Re: Today's Republican Party is simply ignorant
Of course it is allowable. In fact I'd say it was essential.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Taq, posted 04-07-2011 5:04 PM Taq has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 268 of 440 (611366)
04-07-2011 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by 1.61803
04-07-2011 4:36 PM


Re: Republican Platform is brainwashing
I certainly agree, but once society begins with this sort of policing, where does it end.
It ends where it began and where it has always been; with the rights of the parent subordinate to the interests of the child.
I don't see anything slippery about the slope.
Like freedom of speech is protected by the constitution
Freedom of speech is indeed protected by the constitution, as is freedom of assembly. Children have these rights as much as parents do; parents may have a right to free speech but they have no right to force someone to listen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by 1.61803, posted 04-07-2011 4:36 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 273 by 1.61803, posted 04-07-2011 6:11 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 269 of 440 (611367)
04-07-2011 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Taq
04-07-2011 4:49 PM


Re: Republican Platform is brainwashing
Teaching your children is the action. Only when you disagree with what is taught do you call it brainwashing.
That's not at all true. I certainly think it's possible for a parent to brainwash a child into liberalism, or into the biological sciences, or into evolution. I think you can be brainwashed into the belief that the Earth is an oblate spheroid, even though that's a true fact. It's possible to believe true things for the wrong reasons, and teaching isn't the same thing as brainwashing. Not at all.
Brainwashing is an objective description of specific indoctrination techniques, not a judgement about the veracity of what is being taught. It's frequently the case that brainwashing is the only way to "teach" something that is completely false, but certainly true things could be brainwashed, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Taq, posted 04-07-2011 4:49 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 270 of 440 (611368)
04-07-2011 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by crashfrog
04-07-2011 5:49 PM


Re: Republican Platform is brainwashing
See above, Crash. Subbie has verified that judges do indeed have the ability to remove children entirely from homes in custody disputes if both households are unsuitable. Jor provided the specific law that says so.
We have here a full falsification of your hypothesis. A mother was allowed to retain custody of her children despite "brainwashing" them with reprehensible racist ideas (their status as white supremacist pop singers fully establishes that they have embraced the ideals of their parents and become racists themselves). Despite her disgusting racism and association with white supremacist movements, her parental rights were not terminated, despite the judge most definitely having the ability to do so.
This refutes the hypothesis that "brainwashing" children with racist ideology is grounds for termination of parental rights, pure and simple. "Aggregate" means nothing - a single clear example like this is all that's required to falsify your hypothesis. The only reason you're refusing to discuss this particular example, one that you brought up I might add, is because it destroys your argument utterly.
ABE - just to reiterate the point we're refuting, Crash, the quote from you that I originally took iss with was:
Racists don't have the right to raise little racists.
They do have that right, Crash. That's why the 13-year-old white supremacist twin sisters are still in their mother's custody instead of foster care. That's why the police don't round up any and all children at white supremacist rallies and take them from their parents.
You're just wrong, plain and simple, and we've all provided more than ample evidence to prove it.
Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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