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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
Admin
Director
Posts: 12719
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 451 of 657 (607687)
03-05-2011 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Buzsaw
03-05-2011 6:26 PM


Re: Wheel Forms
Buzsaw writes:

I have no further evidence than what I have cited. If you choose to close the thread or disqualify me from further participation, that's your call.

You claim you have presented evidence in this thread. Others say you haven't. Rather than continuing this, "Yes I did, no you didn't" I want you to settle the issue by collecting all that evidence into a single message.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2011 6:26 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 1:41 PM Admin has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 452 of 657 (607732)
03-06-2011 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Admin
03-05-2011 10:59 PM


Re: Summarizing The Evidence
Buz, you're repeating the very claims I asked you to stop repeating. If you're going to ignore moderator requests then please stop participating in this thread. I'm going to hide the content. Also, please stop replying to my messages. This is not a discussion. I've made my requests clear, so please follow them or stop posting. --Admin

Admin writes:

Buzsaw writes:

I have no further evidence than what I have cited. If you choose to close the thread or disqualify me from further participation, that's your call.

You claim you have presented evidence in this thread. Others say you haven't. Rather than continuing this, "Yes I did, no you didn't" I want you to settle the issue by collecting all that evidence into a single message.

We've been there and done that way back in Message 175 on page six. We've been debating those acclaimed evidences with the usual and expected responses. Secularists consistently argue that none are valid.

It is an established fact than no secularist is ever going to admit to any evidence supportive to anything supernatural.

What you've been given throughout the thread is all that I have. What has dragged this thread on is the need for me, the one vs the pack to respond to the numerous objections of the pack. If I fail to respond I be dammed. If I respond, I be dammed. I expect that when my stuff effectively challenges the positions of the majority counterparts. Nobody likes their ox to be gored, so to speak.

Perhaps, if my responses are objectionable to you, it's time to close the thread. I have no further evidence to debate than what has been cited. In the mean time, so long as I get response I try to answer, in a good spirited manner, to the best of my ability.

Edited by Admin, : Hide content.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Admin, posted 03-05-2011 10:59 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by PaulK, posted 03-06-2011 2:24 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 456 by ringo, posted 03-06-2011 4:03 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply
 Message 457 by jar, posted 03-06-2011 4:44 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 461 by Admin, posted 03-06-2011 7:19 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 3416 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 453 of 657 (607734)
03-06-2011 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by Buzsaw
03-05-2011 6:21 PM


Re: Where are the bodies?
According to the record, due to their unbelief and murmuring, only the young survived to go into the promised land, the rest all dying in the wilderness and particularly, Kadesh Barnea. Moses, in fact, climbed the mountain on which he expired and died, a healthy man, at the age of 120. Many were likely aged but healthy when they exited Egypt. They would have died off in the wilderness or at Kadesh.

I think you're missing the point. They were in the desert for 40 years. The average lifespan was 40 years. That means nearly every one who started the journey should have died in the desert.

So you're saying that even though the lifespan was 40 years in that time frame, this did not apply to those in the desert?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2011 6:21 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 3:44 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 16860
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 454 of 657 (607735)
03-06-2011 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Buzsaw
03-06-2011 1:41 PM


Re: Summarizing The Evidence
So let us sum up the facts:

All the scriptural "evidence" offered is either false or based on a misunderstanding. None of it stands.

There is not one piece of physical evidence that is even likely to have anything to do with the Exodus.

Other evidence that Buz claimed to have was never produced and apparently never existed.

It is claimed that Moller's reputation in other fields is such that we must regard his claims as trustworthy despite the lack of significant evidence in his favour - and all the evidence that Moller's work is credulous and ignorant at best and heavily relies on the claims of the disreputable Ron Wyatt.

And Buz tries to claim that it is his opponents who are unfairly biased ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 1:41 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 455 of 657 (607748)
03-06-2011 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by hERICtic
03-06-2011 2:12 PM


Re: Where are the bodies?
hERICtic writes:

The average lifespan was 40 years.

Your source is what?

Edited by Admin, : Hide content because it is in violation of moderator requests.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by hERICtic, posted 03-06-2011 2:12 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 19078
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 456 of 657 (607751)
03-06-2011 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Buzsaw
03-06-2011 1:41 PM


Re: Summarizing The Evidence
Buzsaw writes:

I expect that when my stuff effectively challenges the positions of the majority counterparts.


You haven't challenged anybody. If the children of Israel did cross the Gulf of Aqaba at Nuweiba, that wouldn't present the slightest problem to anything I believe. I'd be more than happy to accept it, so you can stop lying about that.

The issue is that you've presented no evidence that hasn't been soundly refuted. You don't even seem to have any understanding of what evidence is. You can't just keep claiming that it supports your position when you've been shown that it doesn't.

On top of that, most of your claims flat-out contradict what the Bible says.


You can have brevity and clarify, or you can have accuracy and detail, but you can't easily have both. --Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 1:41 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 457 of 657 (607756)
03-06-2011 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Buzsaw
03-06-2011 1:41 PM


Re: Summarizing The Evidence
Looking at Message 175 I see NO sign of you presenting evidence.

Buz writes:

Duck 1. The Biblical record of the Exodus said that when they reached the sea they were entrapped with the pursuing Egyptians pursuing via the only route in, implying a wadi in a narrow passage through rugged terrain.

An assertion that is not supported by any evidence. Do you know what evidence is Buz? Where is the evidence?

Buz writes:

Duck 2. While at the sea shore there needed to be a large enough beach to accommodate a large number of people and animals. Nuweiba beach and it's surrounding terrain fits the ticket.

Again, an irrelevant assertion unsupported by evidence. You have shown no evidence of why Nuwebia beach is any better than any of literally hundreds of other far more likely locations. Where is the evidence?

Buz writes:

Duck 3. The alleged crossing was the most shallow part of the sea where they were entrapped.

Another totally unsupported assertion. Where in the story does it say the crossing was at the most shallow part of any sea? Remember, evidence Buz, not your fantasy or imagination. Where is the evidence?

Buz writes:

Duck 4. Photographed forms in the shapes of wheels and axles off the beach on the sea bottom.

Again, that is not evidence that they ARE chariot wheels. Where is the evidence?

Buz writes:

Duck 5. A split rock where water flowed from meeting the description of the record.

You showed a photo of a very common geological formation, a split rock, but NO evidence of water flow. You simply assert there was water flow in spite of the fact that the rocks in the asserted stream bed do not show any signs of water erosion. Where is the evidence?

Buz writes:

Duck 6. The record says they were in the land of Midian after the crossing...

Nonsense. Another unsupported assertion. In addition, your very own source pointed out that the Midians territory extended in the Sinai Peninsula on both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba. Where is the evidence?

Buz writes:

Duck 7 ..where Mt Sinai was according to the record.

As would a mountain on the Sinai Peninsula. More unsupported assertion there Buz. Where is the evidence?

Buz writes:

Duck 8. The top of the mountain was miraculously burnt by an act of God. Acclaimed Mt Sinai has a blackened top.

Again, so you claim. But you presented no evidence to support that position even though several others presented other explanations that certainly would explain a black topped mountain in the area. Where is the evidence?

Buz writes:

Duck 9. Moses encounters the father of his wives in the land of Midian, according to the record.

And you presented no evidence to support that. In addition, as pointed out above, almost anywhere on the Sinai Peninsula would be in Midian. That also adds NO support to the Exodus ever happening and so was just another attempt to palm the pea. Where is the evidence?

Buz writes:

Duck 10. A blacked top mountain acclaimed by explorers not to be volcanic, meeting the location of the record.

Again, nonsense Buz. See Dead Duck 8 above. Where is the evidence?

Buz writes:

Duck 11. Rock inscriptions of bulls horses or cows indicative to occupation at some time by people at the base of the mountain.

We been over the images Buz. They are pretty common pictoglyphs. In addition, no evidence has been presented to show that they are even in the area. Where is the evidence?

Buz writes:

Duck 12. A large plain at the foot of the mountain suitable for a sojourn for the large assembly and where they worshipped the golden calf while Moses was on the mountain receiving the commandment stones. etc.

Again, you have NOT provided any evidence that such a plain was occupied or any reason that flat spot is any different than any other such place. Where is the evidence?

Now you claimed that you presented evidence in Message 175 and so I have patiently addressed each point you raised there.

You provided no evidence in support of any one of your so called ducks and in fact each and every one of the ducks is simply an assertion.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Edited by jar, : and addrosious grammr


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 1:41 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 6:25 PM jar has responded
 Message 462 by DrJones*, posted 03-06-2011 7:31 PM jar has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 458 of 657 (607766)
03-06-2011 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by jar
03-06-2011 4:44 PM


Re: Summarizing The Evidence
We've gone over this same-ole, Jar. I'm not going to re-hash it all over, especially knowing that nothing will satisfy you people who have a phobia of anything supportive to the supernatural. . The only reason I brought it forward is to show what evidence I cited.

Edited by Admin, : Hide content because it is in violation of moderator requests.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by jar, posted 03-06-2011 4:44 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by jar, posted 03-06-2011 6:39 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 460 by frako, posted 03-06-2011 6:49 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 459 of 657 (607768)
03-06-2011 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by Buzsaw
03-06-2011 6:25 PM


Re: Summarizing The Evidence
Buzsaw writes:

We've gone over this same-ole, Jar. I'm not going to re-hash it all over, especially knowing that nothing will satisfy you people who have a phobia of anything supportive to the supernatural. . The only reason I brought it forward is to show what evidence I cited.

You presented NO evidence Buz. Do you even know what evidence is? You just made assertions. Show us ONE piece of evidence that was in Message 175.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 6:25 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

frako
Member
Posts: 2931
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 460 of 657 (607772)
03-06-2011 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by Buzsaw
03-06-2011 6:25 PM


Re: Summarizing The Evidence
We've gone over this same-ole, Jar. I'm not going to re-hash it all over, especially knowing that nothing will satisfy you people who have a phobia of anything supportive to the supernatural. . The only reason I brought it forward is to show what evidence I cited.

Well im an atheist and i have no phobia for EVIDENCE of the supernatural, and am actualy quite interested in some supernatural claim shows. And am quite intrigued by the EVP (electronic voice phenomenon) evidence some ghostunter shows come up with.

Tough if some ghost hunter shows an evp with one badly heard word im not gona take that as evidence of any kind because our brains are wired to make sense of patterns even if there is no sence in patterns tough i herd some evps that make your skin crawl 4 and more word sentences clearly heard and in context with questions asked. Now that kind of evidence merits speculation, more investigation .......

Now the same goes for you and your claims if you have such claims that go against factual evidence known so fare you haveto provide STRONG evidence strong enough to merit rethinking of the old facts, a broken rock in a desert filled with broken rocks is very weak, a cow painting not strong at all, corrals that look like wheels do not convince me to change history books it is an interesting find it would merit further investigation just to be sure tough my money is on more plausible explanations like (they just happen to look like wheels and are not wheels, they are weals of a different era fallen of a boat ......)

evidence that would make me lean to your side of the debate would be:
- a trail of lamb bones, broken pots, wheels fireplaces ......
- Egyptian hyrolgiphes telling the same storry
- Writings of other nations describing the tale .....

Stuff like that that we would be sure to find if the exodus happened you can apologiese the lack of this evidence all you want whiteout some concrete evidence its not believable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 6:25 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12719
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 461 of 657 (607777)
03-06-2011 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Buzsaw
03-06-2011 1:41 PM


Re: Summarizing The Evidence
Hi Buz - please see the message this is a reply to.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 1:41 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2177
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 462 of 657 (607780)
03-06-2011 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by jar
03-06-2011 4:44 PM


Re: Summarizing The Evidence
Duck 3. The alleged crossing was the most shallow part of the sea where they were entrapped

Not just an unsupported assertion but a blatant falsehood. It was only after Theodoric in Message 212 showed Buz that the depth at the alleged crossing site is ~765m that Buz in Message 214 decided that a magical tsunami carved out the current depth. Buz's duck 3 is dead.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by jar, posted 03-06-2011 4:44 PM jar has not yet responded

kowalskil 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2675 days)
Posts: 15
From: Fort Lee, NJ, USA
Joined: 11-27-2010


Message 463 of 657 (611597)
04-08-2011 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-02-2010 10:26 AM


jar writes:

Buz has claimed that there is some evidence that the Biblical Exodus happened.

While the saga itself has none of the attributes of an historical account and all of the attributes of an extended fable meant to provide food and shelter for the storyteller over many nights, it is always possible that there was some small truth that led to the creation of the longer fable.

This thread is meant as an opportunity for Buz in particular but anyone else who might think it is an actual historical account to present their best arguments in support of that position.

Bible Accuracy if possible.

Most Biblical stories describe what people believed long time ago. Some stories were probably invented. Most theologians would probably agree. Personally I am not ware of physical remains of exodus.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.
.

Edited by kowalskil, : a typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 09-02-2010 10:26 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Trae
Member (Idle past 3205 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 464 of 657 (611604)
04-09-2011 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by ramoss
03-05-2011 1:14 PM


Re: Wheel Forms
Even worse, he cannot show the size of so called wheels (no reference) or even what size Eqyptian chariot wheels were.

Edited by Trae, : he cannot show the size of so called wheels (no reference)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by ramoss, posted 03-05-2011 1:14 PM ramoss has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 465 of 657 (611608)
04-09-2011 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by kowalskil
04-08-2011 10:01 PM


Objective Observation
kowalskil writes:

jar writes:

Buz has claimed that there is some evidence that the Biblical Exodus happened.

While the saga itself has none of the attributes of an historical account and all of the attributes of an extended fable meant to provide food and shelter for the storyteller over many nights, it is always possible that there was some small truth that led to the creation of the longer fable.

This thread is meant as an opportunity for Buz in particular but anyone else who might think it is an actual historical account to present their best arguments in support of that position.

Bible Accuracy if possible.

Most Biblical stories describe what people believed long time ago. Some stories were probably invented. Most theologians would probably agree. Personally I am not ware of physical remains of exodus.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.
.

Hi Ludwik. Welcome to EvC. We're honored to have members of your academic stature aboard. I hope you will find time to continue with us.

Have you read the whole thread objectively? Personally I think you need to become objectively (I say objectively) aware of the physical evidence cited in this thread; all of it corroboratively.

It doesn't take much evidence to convince secularists of, say, multi-verses and abiogenesis. On the other hand no amount of evidence will ever convince avowed secularists of anything involving the existence of the Biblical god, Jehovah.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by kowalskil, posted 04-08-2011 10:01 PM kowalskil has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by jar, posted 04-09-2011 9:08 AM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply
 Message 467 by PaulK, posted 04-09-2011 10:11 AM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply
 Message 468 by ringo, posted 04-09-2011 10:38 AM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

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