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Author Topic:   The accelerating expanding universe
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 81 of 149 (611207)
04-06-2011 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by subbie
04-06-2011 4:03 PM


Re: A general question for anyone
But we couldn't be in the cake an hour ago, because it wasn't a cake then, it was cake batter.
Exactly
So, if we were in a steady state universe, then the Cosmological Principle could conceivably apply to time?
Yes, this is precisely what Hoyle wanted. He was not alone. Many cosmologists were not impressed with a theory that smacked of creationism, especially as one of its proponents, Lemaitre, was a Catholic priest!

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 83 of 149 (611215)
04-06-2011 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Jon
04-06-2011 3:57 PM


Re: A general question for anyone
Can we know if we're at the beginning, middle, or end without knowing the length of the line?
It's a valid point. But at the moment, we seem to be in a semi-infinite Universe - past finite, future infinite. The "sweet spot" in time for life is the last few billion years, and will continue for many billions of billions of years. Yet with the continuing and ever increasing expansion, the encroaching heat-death or cold-death will eventually be reached, and the Universe will remain in that state ad infinitum. So no matter how long the temporal sweet-spot, it is infinitesimal next to the entire Universe.

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 Message 79 by Jon, posted 04-06-2011 3:57 PM Jon has replied

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 Message 84 by subbie, posted 04-06-2011 5:00 PM cavediver has replied
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 91 of 149 (611233)
04-06-2011 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Jon
04-06-2011 5:15 PM


Re: A general question for anyone
the time-window for life is relatively short and comparatively near the start time of the Universe, making it somewhat 'unique' or 'special'... yes?
Yes - in a non-teleological sense
Suppose there were a way to enclose a biological system and allow it to continue to function perpetually without the input of external energy potential, would this system still be able to exist after the heat-death/cold-death
Sure, if you have a handy perpetual motion engine in your garage. Otherwise, the heat/cold-death has several 1010... billion years to wait for your energy to run out, and then it will get you and your bubble...
I mean, is the expansion happening at even the most minute level?
Only in the more speculative big-rip type ideas. But it doesn't have to in order to still win over anything you care to postulate. It has time, lots and lots of time. Time for your energy to run out. Time for your matter to decay into the basicc atoms. Time for your neutrons to decay to protons. Time for your protons to decay to pions. And then the ever accelerating expansion will scatter those final particles each into their own causally isolated volumes of space...
ABE: I love this stuff, but even I was getting depressed writing that paragraph
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

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 Message 87 by Jon, posted 04-06-2011 5:15 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Jon, posted 04-06-2011 5:56 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 93 of 149 (611236)
04-06-2011 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-06-2011 5:28 PM


Re: A general question for anyone
an expanding universe which I hold to be a physical impossibility.
And my friend's mother thinks that NASA never landed men on the moon. I hold you and she in similar regard
The name is Alexander Franklin Mayer.
What is hilarious is that you even screw up presenting his claptrap.
Also the alleged unity of opinion in cosmology is another empty claim of yours. That is your wishful thinking talking.
Ah, so now you are telling me what is happening amongst my own peers. How insightful of you
I'm sorry, Alfred, but you are bringing nothing but idiocy to this thread. I have little time as it is, and I prefer spending my time answering the questions of those with a genuine desire to learn, not bantering with those with a desperate desire to be right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-06-2011 5:28 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 96 of 149 (611239)
04-06-2011 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Jon
04-06-2011 5:56 PM


Re: Man vs Heat-Death
So is my body expanding presently?
No, local forces vastly dominate any expansion (except in the Big-Rip.) But with the disintegration and decay of even your atoms into more basic partciles, there will be no molecular or atomic forces left to compete against, and the expansion of space will simply carry these non-bound particles apart.
But what about the expansion of matter?
Again, matter won't expand as long as there are inter-molecular and inter-atomic forces at work (except with the Big-Rip), but these forces will vanish as the atoms decay away.
Edited by cavediver, : subtitle

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 97 of 149 (611240)
04-06-2011 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by subbie
04-06-2011 5:00 PM


Re: Big Crunch?
The last I heard (a few millennia ago), the idea of dark matter was being discussed as something that might add enough mass to the universe to make a Big Crunch possible.
Yes, that's right. But it was before we discovered that the Universe's expansion is accelerating. Before that, we assumed the rate of expansion was slowing as that is what we expected from theory. With the discovery of the acceleration, the Big Crunch is sadly no more. That said, if the acceleration is driven by a dynamic field (i.e. if dark energy can vary) then it is just about possible that the acceleration could switch off, and if the matter content (dark + visible) is sufficient, then we could still get a Big Crunch - lots of "ifs".
Edited by cavediver, : subtitle

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 Message 98 by subbie, posted 04-06-2011 7:36 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 100 of 149 (611295)
04-07-2011 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by subbie
04-06-2011 7:36 PM


Re: Big Bounce
I really want the universe to be cyclical, banging, crunching, bouncing and banging again...
Possibly... Roger Penrose has an idea that the ultimate end-state of the heat/cold-death is pure energy - ugh, can't belive I just used that term - by which I mean there are only photons left in the Universe, which travel at the speed of light. The Universe is thus left in a state in which there is no length scale (anything that travels at the speed of light has no concept of length) - and so its size is undetermined, despite the fact that it has just undergone exponential expansion for the past 101010... years !!! Thus the entire Universe can be considered the "singularity" of a new cycle of the Universe, and it all begins again. It's profoundly Escher in character, which is so applicable given that Escher's impossible drawings are based on Roger's impossible triangle - the Penrose Triangle
Do I buy it? Probably not, but I do love it...

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 113 of 149 (611508)
04-08-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Oli
04-08-2011 10:40 AM


Re: Relativity
However, as has been said before in this thread, I don’t agree that:
The geometric nature of relativistic time revealed by Minkowski implies an infinite number of distinct cosmological time-lines rather than one, and distinct time-lines associated with distinct cosmic regions cannot be parallel.
Actually, I don't find anything in that statement objectionable. The time directions in distinct cosmic regions are certainly not parallel - it is precisely this fact which gives rise to cosmological red-shift.

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 Message 112 by Oli, posted 04-08-2011 10:40 AM Oli has replied

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 116 of 149 (611577)
04-08-2011 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Oli
04-08-2011 2:28 PM


Re: Relativity
Hmm ok, but was what I said about being able to define a universal time correct?
Yes, it was a good description.
but if k is 0 I think they are Euclidean. In that case are the four-velocities of observers parallel?
No. The k=0 solution, the "flat" solution, is only flat in the hypersurfaces - i.e. intrinsic 3-curavture is zero, but extrinsic 4-curvature is non-zero. This is a very common misconception.
However, I may not be thinking about this right because the cosmological redshift depends on the ratio of scale factors at the emitter and receiver. That would mean that we would get redshift without non-parallel time axes for k=0.
Exactly. The red-shift is simply given by the angle between the light-cones at emission and reception - this angle is generated by both curvature (cosmological red-shift, light-cone tipping) and motion (doppler, Lorentz transformation).

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 Message 115 by Oli, posted 04-08-2011 2:28 PM Oli has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Oli, posted 04-11-2011 2:58 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 123 of 149 (611928)
04-12-2011 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Oli
04-11-2011 2:58 PM


Re: Relativity
I think my main problem is defining 'parallel'...
Well, you have a (metric-based) connection, so parallel transport is not a problem... and thus you can drag your light cones around and compare them.
In the case of red-shift between two comoving observers, do we just see the cosmological red-shift though?
Yes, but essentially by definition.

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 Message 122 by Oli, posted 04-11-2011 2:58 PM Oli has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Oli, posted 04-24-2011 12:42 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 128 of 149 (613307)
04-24-2011 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Oli
04-24-2011 12:42 PM


Re: Relativity
Thanks for the help! I've just finished an undergraduate course in GR
Cool - where are you studying? Are you going on to postgrad?

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 138 of 149 (613787)
04-27-2011 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by fearandloathing
04-27-2011 10:13 AM


Re: Relativity
This is from one of Mayer's papers...
...and is complete bollocks, much like the rest of his site. Funny how he has no model to back this up, and no metric as Oli points out. This guy is so clueless, he doesn't even realise how the concept of a "black hole" arises. He thinks that as long as he can squeeze in enough buzz words and cool sounding jargon, that he may just pass for someone who knows what he is talking about. Unfortunately, he is just one big epic fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by fearandloathing, posted 04-27-2011 10:13 AM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by fearandloathing, posted 04-27-2011 11:34 AM cavediver has not replied
 Message 141 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-27-2011 1:44 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 143 of 149 (613805)
04-27-2011 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-27-2011 1:44 PM


Re: Relativity
What he is suggesting was called Einstein-Rosen bridge the last time I checked
The Einstein-Rosen Bridge is a specific cross-section of the Schwarzschild (and related) space-time(s) - and Mayer obviosuly doesn't have a Schwarzschild space-time as he has replaced General Relativity with something of his own making.
Furthermore, the Einstein-Rosen Bridge is purely space-like and is thus non-traversable - nothing can cross it from one-side to the other - it is merely an artifact of the space-time geometry.

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