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Author Topic:   The accelerating expanding universe
Son Goku
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 71 of 149 (611169)
04-06-2011 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-04-2011 6:05 AM


Relativity
quote:
Yes, Oli, I understand all that- what I do not get is by what trick of mathematics from that notion of fundamental observers which per your description sounds like something perfectly arbitrary, relative, hypothetical and imaginary, the contention that there is a single time-line possessing a definite point of beginning called the Big Bang with a strict calendar of sequential events that is valid for the whole infinite process called the universe is derived? How anything that is supposed to possess a physical reality is extrapolated from those universal fluids and fundamental observers?
Well the answer to that question is a whole graduate course on General Relativity. However let me try to give some answers.
Okay, so we notice a few things:
(a)The laws of physics don't really depend on position or velocity. (The insight of Newton)
I'll just say a little bit more about (a). Newton's famous equations F=ma tells you that the force on a body, F, causes an acceleration, a (proportional to the mass). So objects will all react to the same force in the same way, even if they encounter it at different locations and at different speeds.
Let's call objects which aren't accelerating (a=0) "inertial observers".
Now Maxwell's equations predict:
(b) For a given inertial frame, light has a constant speed that never changes.
So by the spirit of Newton's insight this means that every inertial observer should see light moving at a constant speed.
Unfortunately the transformations that Newtonian physics gives for moving between frames (which are based on our intuition), change the speed light, so that different inertial observers see the speed of light differently. Hence a prediction of Maxwell's equations seems to depend on velocity, unlike anything else in physics.
Einstein didn't like this (neither did experiment), so he had the idea that perhaps the transformations to go from one observer to another should be altered from our intuition to new transformation laws which keep the speed of light the same.
He wrote down these new transformation laws. The new transformation laws say that time will dilate and space contract as you move between observers (as you speed up or slow down). It seems odd, but it is the only way to keep the speed of light the same for all observers, so that the laws of physics don't depend on your velocity.
Of course it leads to strange things, the same transformation laws imply that mass is related to energy, e.t.c. However these things have been confirmed. So if you live near a nuclear power station your house is "powered by" resolving a conflict between Maxwell's equations and Newton's insight.
Soon after this, Minkowski realised that these new transformation laws are simply the transformation laws for a four dimensional world where time is an extra dimension and this four dimensional world is now called Minkowski space.
This is Special Relativity.
What about gravity?
Einstein was initially having trouble working gravity into relativity, until he had a fundamental insight: the equivalence principle. A person who is falling feels no force. If you fell toward a planet with your eyes closed and the planet had no atmosphere, you would feel nothing (well except when you hit the ground). Since force is related to acceleration, observers who are falling are like those with no acceleration, a=0. Or to put it another way, falling observers are inertial observers.
If you just put a planet in Minkowski space the trajectories of inertial observers do not bend towards the planet, so falling observers will not be inertial. To correctly model the scenario you need another spacetime, one whose inertial trajectories are falling trajectories. In fact you'll need a different spacetime for each arrangement of matter. "Falling" in these trajectories will then just be following an inertial path, something that requires no force. So gravity is not a force, just the result of following the contours of spacetime and the shape of spacetime depends on the matter present.
This is General Relativity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-04-2011 6:05 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-06-2011 12:34 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 149 (611319)
04-07-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-06-2011 12:34 PM


Re: Relativity
quote:
Thank you, for your very reasonable exposition of General Relativity. Unfortunately I do not see how from anything either Einstein or yourself stated may follow anything that would require violating the necessity of the Copernican mediocrity principle being applied temporally. As it is the principle is spatially honoured by the contemporary cosmological model. Given the unity of space and time this situation strikes me as a contradiction.
All that you said about the free falling bodies constituting the inertial frames is correct. The universal flat calendar hardly follows from any of that.
cavediver has mentioned this already, but you are mixing up the theory with a solution. General Relativity is a theory which describes the spacetime generated by any arrangement of matter. If the matter is homogeneous, the spacetime will be homogeneous.
Maxwell's electromagnetism does not imply that electric fields are rotating, however if the electric matter is rotating then it does predict that electric field will rotate.
Maxwell's equations and General Relativity are both theories which predict what fields will be created by what arrangement of matter. The field will be different for different arrangements of matter and for homogeneous matter you will get a homogeneous field, but that's not a direct implication of General Relativity.
An everyday example would be the "rules" of a car insurance company. The rules in abstract don't imply that you pay the maximum price. They apply differently to different drivers. However when applied to an extremely dangerous driver they do imply the maximum price.
quote:
What it may imply philosophically in terms of motion is only that the speed of light is the speed of time itself.
It does not imply that. Speed is the amount of distance covered in a given time, hence light has a speed. Time does not cover a distance, hence there is no concept of the speed of time. The closest thing to a speed of time would be in relativity where you can compare the rate of change of one observer's time to another observer's time.
Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-06-2011 12:34 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-07-2011 1:58 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 149 (612104)
04-13-2011 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-07-2011 1:58 PM


Re: Relativity
quote:
Yes, that is correct. I do indeed find the theory of relativity to be reasonable but the solutions from which the flat universal clock rate is derived seem to me contrived and patched upon it arbitrarily
They are not patched upon it arbitrarily, the follow from it directly if you use a homogeneous matter source
quote:
and it appears that they were simply needed in order to fit the theory to the assumption of the universal uniform expansion from a single dot of spacetime.
You have it the wrong way around. Roughly homogeneous matter was observed already, so it was put into Einstein's field equations to see what the predicted spacetime would be from the observed matter. The result was the cosmological expansion spacetime.
Hence the actual chain of thought is:
Observe homogeneous matter => Use homogeneous matter in Einstein's field equations => Field equations predict cosmological expansion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-07-2011 1:58 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-25-2011 3:59 AM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 149 (613426)
04-25-2011 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-25-2011 3:59 AM


Re: Relativity
quote:
I would not be sure about that.
Well, you don't have to be, that is what occurred historically. It was the chain of logic.
quote:
As far as I know that is only one of the possible solutions while all the solutions may look very good on paper.
That is incorrect. With homogeneous matter that is the only solution to Einstein's field equations.
quote:
Why is it so difficult to consider such an elegant scenario? What are the explanatory advantages of the expansion idea? I don't see any at all, so the reluctance to consider the unorthodox view must be due to the cultural habits of thinking only.
The explanatory advantages of the expansion scenario are obvious:
1) It is a natural consequence of a theory that already correctly describes gravity on solar system scales, predicts the orbits around hyper dense objects, etc
and
2) It matches the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-25-2011 3:59 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-26-2011 1:10 AM Son Goku has not replied

  
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