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Author Topic:   Creationism in science classrooms (an argument for)
Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 286 of 609 (608027)
03-08-2011 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Robert Byers
03-08-2011 4:04 AM


Robert Byers writes:
Dr Adequate writes:
If one bans genesis on a subject where the object is truthful discovery of conclusions then one is saying GEnesis is untruthful.
Implicitly, perhaps.
I ask all posters here WHERE is my reasoning failing???
Well, for one thing, you overlook the legal concept of secular legislative purpose. There is a good reason for at least implicitly teaching that creationism is rubbish, namely that it is. Similarly there would be a good reason for teaching that it was true if it was true, namely that it was true.
Again, I invite you to imagine a sect that taught that two twos are five. Would that sect, by its existence, make it unconstitutional to teach the multiplication table?
Not implicit and not perhaps. Its explicit that in conclusions about some origins Genesis is wrong and further being banned is a state comment that its wrong.
Any court claim can not get around this equation that in a subject about discovery of truth a BANNING is state opinion its not true.
Yes that sect would make it unconstitutional. Yes thats the law as invented in the 1900's.
Reverse. if the sect taught that two twos are four and the state taught it was five likewise the sect stuff would be banned.
This is happening today.
The law is not applied as it claims its intended.
I think you're making here the best case against creationism in science class. It seems in your mind that we should stop teaching anything in school just because your interpretation of the constitution is as dogmatic as anything else regardless of evidence (if we can't even teach 2+2=4 anymore, what could we actually teach?). You're showing that listening to creationnists may very well send us back to the dark ages (where the very computer you're using wouldn't even be possible). You seem to want to apply your interpretation of the law regardless of the insane and terrible consequences that would follow.
The law is made by humans for the benefit of society, they are not like your bible to follow blindly without any moral considerations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Robert Byers, posted 03-08-2011 4:04 AM Robert Byers has not replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 367 of 609 (609822)
03-23-2011 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by fearandloathing
03-23-2011 10:25 AM


I think that what you and a lots of people are missing in this thread is that Robert doesn't even want to teach 2+2 = 4 or even that the Earth is spherical. What he is in fact advocating is abject ignorance for everyone. He must be aware that by destroying education, people will be easier to fool and convert for his own benefit (or his religion's benefit). His desire has nothing to do with education but is purely for his own gain but what he is missing is that it is thanks to scientific education that he is able to live in the comfort of a modern country instead of the misery of a 3rd world country. He doesn't seem to be pushing for his religion to be taught (even though it would be a bonus for him), he wishes nothing to be taught in order to be able to cheat people later on.
In short, he's confident that he's the best conman out there but given his performance in this thread, I feel that his confidence is misplaced.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by fearandloathing, posted 03-23-2011 10:25 AM fearandloathing has not replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 376 of 609 (610101)
03-26-2011 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Robert Byers
03-26-2011 3:23 AM


I know I shouldn't be responding to you since you won't understand it but imagine my religion asks me to rape and kill my neighbours, should the cops be prevented from arresting me since it would violate my religious rights?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Robert Byers, posted 03-26-2011 3:23 AM Robert Byers has not replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 505 of 609 (611909)
04-12-2011 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 504 by Robert Byers
04-12-2011 3:36 AM


Re: Creationism is Religion
Robert, do you actually want to scrap all schools? Do you really want to destroy education so everyone is equally ignorant? It may be your purpose but surely even you can understand why the state would be opposed to that. If it wasn't for education, you wouldn't even have the computer to type this on (remember that you can't make much if you teach 2+2=5).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Robert Byers, posted 04-12-2011 3:36 AM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by Robert Byers, posted 04-15-2011 2:14 AM Son has replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 542 of 609 (612106)
04-13-2011 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 540 by frako
04-13-2011 8:24 AM


Re: I Feel Your Pain
Actually, what pisses me off more is that they are calling their BS science. They're trying to appropriate themselves the merit of years of hard work with none of the efforts. If they just said that creationism is true but it's not science, I wouldn't mind much. The problem is that they're trying to steal scientists works to their own ends.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by frako, posted 04-13-2011 8:24 AM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by dwise1, posted 04-13-2011 10:39 AM Son has not replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 569 of 609 (612224)
04-14-2011 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 561 by Dawn Bertot
04-13-2011 6:28 PM


Re: New header (finally)
A scientist opinion is not the same as science, otherwise we should be teaching alchemy as well (Newton believed in it). Whether you like it or not, current science works with peer-review and what you presented as ID is not science. It's possible you believe the current scientific community is mistaken and that your version (and ID) is more accurate. Claiming it won't make it so but there's a way to prove your point. Set up an academy with your friend and your new "science", if your opinion is superior, you will be able to make discoveries that will lead to better medicaments/technologies and you and your friends will become filthy rich.
The point you seem to be missing is not that science works this way because of some dogma like religion, it's because it works and you get results and money from it. If your way is superior to the current scientific community, it will be obvious because you will get filthy rich and everyone will be able to check the results.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 561 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-13-2011 6:28 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 586 of 609 (612391)
04-15-2011 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by Robert Byers
04-15-2011 2:14 AM


Re: Creationism is Religion
How is preventing schools from teaching 2+2=4 makes an intelligent populace. That's not searching for truth, that's hiding it. Remember, all you've argued was that we can't teach anything that runs counter to any religion at all, given that there are thousands of religion, we can't teach anything at all regardless of truth (that's according to you anyway).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by Robert Byers, posted 04-15-2011 2:14 AM Robert Byers has not replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 601 of 609 (612485)
04-16-2011 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 600 by Dawn Bertot
04-16-2011 3:54 AM


Re: Off topic rudeness.
Actually, you could disprove evolution by finding either an animal or fossil that doesn't fall into a nested hierarchy for example. What Taq is asking is a similiar thing for ID. As for your view of peer review, I would like to refer you to my message 561. To make it short, why are you not setting up your own version of a scientific community, ID has lots of funds and believers so it shouldn't be that hard. Since you believe your method to be superior, it should bring in lots of money and show the current scientific community their errors rather easily.
Edited by Son, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 600 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-16-2011 3:54 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2011 10:10 AM Son has replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 607 of 609 (612582)
04-17-2011 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 605 by Dawn Bertot
04-17-2011 10:10 AM


Re: Off topic rudeness.
Whatever you think ID is (conclusion process or whatever else), you should still find a way to falsify it if you want to call it part of science. That's just how science works. You're saying yourself that it's a testable investigation and falsification is how you test it.
What I pointed in the last part of my message is that you thought that the current scientific community is doing science wrong (peer review is a part of it). The reason the current system is in place is not out of dogma but just because it works and brings money in. The thread is about an argument for creationism in science class and since you don't feel creationism should have to follow the current scientific standards, then you should show why your own standards are better for science. You can do that by applying your method and get better results. The money part would prove undisputably that your method is in fact better (since the technology resulting from it would be more efficient).
Edited by Son, : No reason given.
Edited by Son, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2011 10:10 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

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