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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
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Message 413 of 657 (604137)
02-10-2011 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by Buzsaw
02-10-2011 1:22 AM


Re: Wilderness Evidence
Hi Buz,
I've posted a number of requests for evidence from you, but have not as yet seen any satisfactory responses. Other participants have also noted the lack of evidence, and the thread's topic is becoming less and less about the Exodus and more and more about cajoling you into following rule 4 of the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
So I'm going to close this thread now. If there comes a time when you're willing to build your points around evidence then please post a note to Thread Reopen Requests 2.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Buzsaw, posted 02-10-2011 1:22 AM Buzsaw has not replied

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Message 414 of 657 (604192)
02-10-2011 1:35 PM


Thread Reopened
Please keep the focus of discussion on the evidence supporting your position or the thread will be closed again.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Message 427 of 657 (604312)
02-11-2011 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Buzsaw
02-10-2011 11:36 PM


Re: Same Ole Jar-gon
Buzsaw writes:
This is a big fuss about little of consequence. My point was only that animals were in the camp and there was a golden calf worshiped. So far as I'm aware, the scripture doesn't give any details about just how the worship was done. If any alter was involved Moses would have destroyed it. The images plus the fact that the mountain is guarded says something about there being some significant activity there at some point in time.
If you have any information about the following then please present it:
  • Just to make certain which petroglyph we're talking about, which among the petroglyphs is the representation of the alter?
  • Again, just to make certain which petroglyph we're talking about, which among the petroglyphs is the representation of the golden calf?
  • What is the evidence tying the petroglyphs to the ancient Hebrews of the Exodus?
  • What is the evidence that the mountain is guarded?
  • Assuming that the rationale for the Saudis guarding the mountain is that they know something profoundly important about it that the rest of the world doesn't know and that they don't want the rest of the world to know, what is the evidence that the Saudis believe it is the site of the fleeing Israelite's Mt. Sinai camp?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Buzsaw, posted 02-10-2011 11:36 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2011 10:51 AM Admin has replied

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Message 437 of 657 (604338)
02-11-2011 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Buzsaw
02-11-2011 10:51 AM


Re: Evidence Or Not?
Buzsaw writes:
It is supportive corroborating evidence to the account. That's it, just as Robert Ballard's evidence of salt water vs fresh water was corroborative evidence of his hypothesis relative to the yet to be analyzed logs at the bottom of the Black Sea. Nothing relating to either amount to much standing alone.
It would be helpful if you could adjust your terminology a bit. Evidence is only corroborative when it strengthens or buttresses other evidence:
Corroborating Evidence
Evidence complementary to evidence already given and tending to strengthen or confirm it; additional evidence of a different character on the same point.
Your evidence doesn't really do that, and your claims that it does is causing the other participants in this thread to spend a lot of bandwidth pointing this out. The evidence you do have is better termed circumstantial evidence:
circumstantial evidence
n.
Evidence not bearing directly on the fact in dispute but on various attendant circumstances from which the judge or jury might infer the occurrence of the fact in dispute.
Circumstantial evidence used by prosecutors arguing before juries who think like you has caused the return of guilty verdicts that later DNA testing overturns. Circumstantial cases are easy to build, but they're like a house of cards because they collapse with the first piece of hard evidence.
Let me clarify by example. After a knife murder, finding a knife of the right size in the home of the suspect would be considered circumstantial evidence. Finding blood on the knife that matched the victim would be corroborating evidence.
Coincidentally, Ingmar Guandique is being sentenced in Washington D.C. today for the murder of Chandra Levy, a former federal intern. He was convicted on the basis of this evidence:
  • There was no forensic evidence.
  • Records from his home country of El Salvador showed a violent history involving women.
  • Guandique had preyed on women in the same park where Levy's remains were found.
  • A fellow convict testified that Guandique had admitted murdering Levy.
Because this is all circumstantial evidence, the first piece of hard evidence that turns up could easily overturn the conviction.
Using your chariot wheel evidence as an example for applying these same criteria, finding circular coral on the floor of the Gulf of Aqaba is circumstantial evidence. Dating the remains of whatever the coral is attached to to the 18th dynasty of Egypt would be good corroborating evidence. Obtaining expert opinion that the object is an actual chariot wheel from the 18th dynasty would be excellent corroborating evidence.
Please, no replies to this message.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.
Edited by Admin, : Improve wording.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2011 10:51 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2011 1:45 PM Admin has replied

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Message 439 of 657 (604383)
02-11-2011 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Buzsaw
02-11-2011 1:45 PM


Re: Evidence Or Not?
Hi Buz,
I did request that there be no replies to my message. I'm not here to discuss this with you. I do understand that you disagree with my position. Whether you decide to follow my requests to at least some reasonable degree is your decision.
Please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2011 1:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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Message 447 of 657 (607648)
03-05-2011 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Buzsaw
03-05-2011 3:55 PM


Re: Wheel Forms
Buzsaw writes:
You're resorting to (as others have attempted) to divide and conquer, discounting the aggregate line-up of supportive evidence. I suggest that you read or reread about that in the thread, before arriving at an objective conclusion.
I need to remind you that throughout this thread the other participants have been complaining that you have presented no evidence, and that you have been responding that you have. In response to this back-and-forth so that discussion can return to the thread's topic I asked that you collect your evidence together. In my Message 366 I asked that you provide this evidence:
  • Photographs of the chariot wheels.
  • Videos of the chariot wheels (links are okay).
  • Current location (museum, laboratory, etc.) of any chariot wheels recovered from the sea floor.
  • Expert's names and analyses indicating that they're chariot wheels and not something else, such as natural formations, coral-encrusted pleasure boat steering wheels, etc.
  • If expert analyses indicate these are ancient chariot wheels, then provide expert's names and analyses indicating the chariot wheels are from the appropriate period and region.
And in my Message 427 I asked that you provide this evidence:
  • Just to make certain which petroglyph we're talking about, which among the petroglyphs is the representation of the alter?
  • Again, just to make certain which petroglyph we're talking about, which among the petroglyphs is the representation of the golden calf?
  • What is the evidence tying the petroglyphs to the ancient Hebrews of the Exodus?
  • What is the evidence that the mountain is guarded?
  • Assuming that the rationale for the Saudis guarding the mountain is that they know something profoundly important about it that the rest of the world doesn't know and that they don't want the rest of the world to know, what is the evidence that the Saudis believe it is the site of the fleeing Israelite's Mt. Sinai camp?
Thank you.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2011 3:55 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by hERICtic, posted 03-05-2011 6:02 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied
 Message 450 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2011 6:26 PM Admin has replied

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Message 451 of 657 (607687)
03-05-2011 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Buzsaw
03-05-2011 6:26 PM


Re: Wheel Forms
Buzsaw writes:
I have no further evidence than what I have cited. If you choose to close the thread or disqualify me from further participation, that's your call.
You claim you have presented evidence in this thread. Others say you haven't. Rather than continuing this, "Yes I did, no you didn't" I want you to settle the issue by collecting all that evidence into a single message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2011 6:26 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 1:41 PM Admin has replied

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Message 461 of 657 (607777)
03-06-2011 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Buzsaw
03-06-2011 1:41 PM


Re: Summarizing The Evidence
Hi Buz - please see the message this is a reply to.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Buzsaw, posted 03-06-2011 1:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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Message 472 of 657 (611683)
04-09-2011 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Buzsaw
04-09-2011 2:16 PM


Re: Post Purpose
Hi Buz,
I requested that you collect your evidence into a single post because you kept claiming you had described a lot of evidence. To repeat this claim yet again while continuing to ignore my request is not very good form.
Your pattern has become this: post evidence that no one accepts and everyone questions, then stop responding to arguments and just claim you've already posted the evidence. The strong possibility that your Coffee House thread proposal would follow a similar course is a good part of the reason AdminPD declined to promote it.
Please refrain from posting to this thread again unless it is to describe your evidence.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Buzsaw, posted 04-09-2011 2:16 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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Message 504 of 657 (612550)
04-16-2011 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by arachnophilia
04-16-2011 3:47 PM


Re: the wrong place entirely
Regarding this from Buzsaw in his PM to you:
Buzsaw writes:
I am not allowed to post in the Exodus thread without additional evidence...
This is untrue. I said nothing about additional evidence. Here is a quote from my last post to Buzsaw in this thread in Message 472:
Admin writes:
I requested that you collect your evidence into a single post because you kept claiming you had described a lot of evidence. To repeat this claim yet again while continuing to ignore my request is not very good form.
Your pattern has become this: post evidence that no one accepts and everyone questions, then stop responding to arguments and just claim you've already posted the evidence. The strong possibility that your Coffee House thread proposal would follow a similar course is a good part of the reason AdminPD declined to promote it.
Please refrain from posting to this thread again unless it is to describe your evidence.
When Buzsaw is prepared to comply with my request that he gather the evidence he's claimed he already presented in this thread into a single post then he is free to resume participation. Until that time I would prefer that he no longer post to this thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by arachnophilia, posted 04-16-2011 3:47 PM arachnophilia has not replied

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Message 509 of 657 (612569)
04-17-2011 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 506 by Buzsaw
04-17-2011 1:11 AM


Re: Buzsaw Evidence Recapped
Hi Buz,
Thank you for collecting the evidence you've presented thus far in this thread into a single message, Message 506. We're going to call this your reference message. From here on in when you claim that you've already presented evidence, this is the message in which people must be able to find that evidence. If the evidence isn't in this message then that means you haven't presented the evidence yet. For instance, you say, "Objections were aired about the shallows at Nuweiba. I offered possible scenarios on that...", but the scenarios are not in this message. Therefore you must describe these scenarios if requested, instead of claiming you've already presented them.
PaulK replied in message Message 508 and briefly touched on a number of issues. To help move the discussion forward I would like to focus discussion on a single issue at a time, the first being the burnt top of Mount Sinai. You do not describe any evidence in your reference message Message 506 that the mountain you claim is Mount Sinai has a burnt top. Please present this evidence.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Buzsaw, posted 04-17-2011 1:11 AM Buzsaw has not replied

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Message 524 of 657 (612708)
04-17-2011 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by Buzsaw
04-17-2011 11:28 AM


Re: Evidence Buz, where is the evidence?
Buzsaw writes:
The delta sandbar is not purely hypothetical. Your refuse to acknowledge the possibility of my scenarios.
You're not being asked about possible scenarios. Your claim is that there was a sandbar there. What is your evidence that there was a sandbar there?
Buzsaw writes:
The delta sandbar is not purely hypothetical.
jar writes:
Fine. Where is the evidence of the delta sandbar?
Buzsaw writes:
I've explained my position on that count.
Jar is asking for evidence. Message 506 is your reference message for evidence in this thread, and there is no evidence for a sandbar in that message. Please describe your evidence for a sandbar at that location during Exodus times.
Also, please describe your evidence that your choice for Mount Sinai has a burnt top unlike other mountains in the region.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by Buzsaw, posted 04-17-2011 11:28 AM Buzsaw has not replied

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Message 532 of 657 (613031)
04-21-2011 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 530 by Buzsaw
04-21-2011 8:01 AM


Re: Nuweiba Beach A Delta
Buzsaw writes:
Can we agree that Nuweiba beach is essentially a large delta formed from the Wadi Waki and the canyon (Colored Canyon?) which it emerges from?
No one doubts Nuweiba Beach exists. If all you're asking is whether it is conceded that Nuweiba Beach exists then since a quick check of Google Maps in satellite mode clearly shows a large sandy extension into the Gulf of Aqaba there can be no doubt that it exists.
Unless it is somehow important to your case that a river be responsible for for the formation of Nuweiba Beach I suggest you drop the parts about Nuweiba Beach being a river delta. By the way, Wikipedia, Google and Google maps searches did not find Wadi Waki.
What you were actually requested to provide is the evidence that a sandbar existed at Nuweiba Beach during the time of the Exodus.
You were also asked to provide evidence that your choice for Mount Sinai has a burnt top unlike other mountains in the region.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Buzsaw, posted 04-21-2011 8:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

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Message 536 of 657 (613083)
04-21-2011 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by Buzsaw
04-21-2011 11:34 AM


Re: Nuweiba Beach A Delta
Hi Buz,
The pattern you have been exhibiting in this thread is that you first post messages like this last one, and then when people reply asking for your evidence you respond that you've already posted your "corroborating evidence supportive to your hypotheses."
The problem I'm trying to address is that there's never any evidence in any of your posts, including this one.
Please provide your evidence that there was a sandbar during the time of Exodus off the coast at Nuweiba.
Please provide your evidence that your chosen site for Mount Sinai has a blackened top unlike other mountains in the region.
These are simple requests. Please fulfill these requests before going off in other directions.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by Buzsaw, posted 04-21-2011 11:34 AM Buzsaw has not replied

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(1)
Message 551 of 657 (613132)
04-21-2011 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 546 by Buzsaw
04-21-2011 7:32 PM


Re: Nuweiba Beach A Delta
Buzsaw writes:
Some credentialed scientists would take issue with you on that count. I see Nuweiba as supportive to the catastrophic Biblical flood, more so than to a relative uniformitarion view.
By raising new unevidenced claims you are distracting attention from your earlier unevidenced claims. One unevidenced claim at a time. When the time comes I will ask you to describe the evidence these "credentialed scientists" used to conclude that Nuweiba was formed catastrophically.
I have a number of times requested your evidence that there was a sandbar off the coast of Nuweiba at the time of the Exodus. Please describe this evidence now. Once you've described this evidence and it has been discussed we can move on to your other claims.
You are too easily distracted by the other participants. You can respond to them all you like and that's fine, but you must also respond to my request for the evidence of a sand bar off Nuweiba. Because I've asked for this evidence so many times now I'm going to ask you to respond to this request before you respond to anything else.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by Buzsaw, posted 04-21-2011 7:32 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by Buzsaw, posted 04-21-2011 11:18 PM Admin has replied

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