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Author Topic:   Books By Creationists?
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 1 of 142 (613281)
04-24-2011 12:34 PM


Do you guys actually spend tiome to read books by creationists? The obvious reason, of course, would be to debunk them and to show people how they mislead people away from science and intentionally misinterpret the actual evidence science has. Here's one book I just started reading:
Amazon.com
Please do not take this to mean that I'm plugging this book for another sale. I am not. I'm simply curious to know if you guys actually read books like this.
Here's a couple of excerps from it to show you guys of the kinds of things they say:
Many today think that science is anti-God. Atheists encourage this
view by claiming that their way of thinking is ‘scientific’. In claiming
this, they are merely redefining science to exclude God. In fact, science began to flourish only when the biblical view of creation took root in Europe as the Reformation spread its influence. The presuppositions that enabled a scientific approach to investigating the worldthat the created universe is real, consistent, understandable, and possible to investigate, for examplecame from the Bible. Even non-Christian historians of science such as Loren Eiseley have acknowledged this. Consequently, almost every branch of science was either founded co-founded, or dramatically advanced, by scientists who believed in the Bible’s account of Creation and the Flood. And there are many scientists today who believe the Bible.
This passage is both true and misleading and dishonest. Because of its statements about atheists. First of all, it 's true that many believe that science is anti-god. But it's somewhat misleading because it is leaving out who exactly believes this, and which groups of people believe this.
Secondly the claim that atheists are anti God. Most of us are not anti God. For one thing, many religious people have persecution complex. Any time atheist speak out on their behalf so they can be represented in their American government, some Christians claim oppression and use that as a tactic to try to shut us up. For some reason, some theists believe that because they follow a higher power that they and only they have the right to speak out and be represented and atheists should just shut up.
Here's an example of this kind of attitude from Michelle Malkin and the hosts: for Fox News in this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brBqkmzN4js
In which Michelle pretty much says that atheists should just shut up and not speak out for their own representation.
And I for one do not understand this.
But this is a tangent of this subject and my mind's wandering a little bit.
The question is do you read books by creationists and do what you can to debunk them to show how dishonest theists are?
Edited by Tram law, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 13 of 142 (613303)
04-24-2011 3:59 PM


Has anyone said that it is ? If not then what is the point in raising it ?
stevesque said:
And once again, if we take an example from another context, if I, as a scientists, would review scientific papers with the intention of debunking it even before reading it ? Why would it be dishonest in that case, but not in the other ?
In typical Theist fashion, he is trying to turn the argument around and claiming through insinuation that it is indeed the scientists who are being dishonest because they intend to debunk it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by slevesque, posted 04-24-2011 4:01 PM Tram law has not replied

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 42 of 142 (613442)
04-25-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by slevesque
04-25-2011 1:49 AM


slevesque writes:
I don't think that's a point of contention at all. I don't think anybody has suggested any such attitude. That's the attitude that we constantly decry among creationists, not one that any science-minded person would advocate.
Well isn't that the kind of attitude Tram Law is promoting in this thread, by saying we read a book with the a priori intention of debunking it (ie having already decided what our conclusion will be) ?
No, I am not.
Experience teaches us that creationists will intentionally mislead and lie about what evolution is all about.
An example straight from the book:
3. Fossils
Although Darwin expected millions of transitional fossils to be found,
none have been found, except for a mere handful of disputable ones.
Evolutionist Dr Colin Patterson of the British Museum of Natural History
responded as follows to a written question asking why he failed to include
illustrations of transitional forms in a book he wrote on evolution:
‘ I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration
of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or
living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an
artist should be used to visualize such transformations, but where
would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide
it, and if I were to leave it to artistic license, would that not mislead
the reader?
‘I wrote the text of my book four years ago. If I were to write
it now, I think the book would be rather different. Gradualism is
a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin’s authority, but
because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it. Yet Gould
and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they
say there are no transitional fossils. As a palaeontologist myself, I
am much occupied with the philosophical problems of identifying
ancestral forms in the fossil record. You say that I should at least
show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was
derived. I will lay it on the linethere is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.
Even Archaeopteryx, often claimed as the transition between reptiles and birds, shows no sign of the crucial scale-to-feather or leg-to-wing transition. While it is always possible to maintain faith in evolution by belief in unobservable mechanisms, the evidence of such a systematic paucity of the anticipated evolutionary ‘links’ on a global scale is powerful, positive support for biblical creation, regardless of any argument about how and when fossils may have formed.
Footnote:
Letter (written April 10, 1979) from Dr Colin Patterson, then Senior Palaeontologist at the British Museum of Natural History in London, to Luther D. Sunderland, as quoted in Sunderland, L.D., 1984. Darwin’s Enigma, Master Books, San Diego, USA, p. 89. Patterson subsequently tried to play down the significance of this very clear statement.
the lie here, of course is that no transitional fossils have been found.
I'm not a scholar or an expert on the subject, so I looked up transitional fossils on Wikipedia and it shows this:
The reconstruction of the evolution of the horse and its relatives assembled by Othniel Charles Marsh from surviving fossils that form a single, consistently developing lineage with many "transitional" types, is often cited as a family tree. However, modern cladistics gives a different, multi-stemmed shrublike picture, with multiple innovations and many dead ends. Other specimens cited as transitional forms include the "walking whale" Ambulocetus, the recently-discovered lobe-finned fish Tiktaalik[4] and various hominids considered to be proto-humans.
A middle Devonian precursor to seed plants from Belgium has been identified predating the earliest seed plants by about 20 million years. Runcaria, small and radially symmetrical, is an integumented megasporangium surrounded by a cupule. The megasporangium bears an unopened distal extension protruding above the mutlilobed integument. It is suspected that the extension was involved in anemophilous pollination. Runcaria sheds new light on the sequence of character acquisition leading to the seed. Runcaria has all of the qualities of seed plants except for a solid seed coat and a system to guide the pollen to the seed.
And you may not trust Wikipedia, but under the reference section it lists the primary sources that you can find and check out for yourself.
And here's the transitional origins FAQ from Talk Origins Archives:
Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ
So there are lots of independent sources to show that the statement of there being no transitional fossils to indeed be incorrect.
So then, this is debunking, to show how creationists are indeed wrong on their statements regarding evolution. They may not fully understand the material and may change their minds when shown to be incorrect, but that is not likely.
Under these circumstances, how can it be biased?
It is not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by slevesque, posted 04-25-2011 1:49 AM slevesque has not replied

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 44 of 142 (613454)
04-25-2011 2:00 PM


And if we identified the no-evidence-will-change-my-mind as the origin of the stubbornness of creationist, what is to say that same attitude isn't simply also the origin of the stubbornness found in evolutionist ?
Because that is not how science works.
Science works by "show me the evidence".
Science wants to see the evidence first.
Show the scientific community the evidence for creationism and they'll accept creationism. And by evidence it must be something that can be tested and verified with tangible results.
Theists and creationist are the complete opposite. They make grandiose claims and say that you must blindly follow their interpretation of what a religions' beliefs means because they work for a higher power and that higher power gives them and only them the authority to speak for it. And all they have really are claims and argumentation with no real tangible evidence to show they are right.
In fact hundreds of their arguments are summed up here:
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
And scientists can change their minds on subjects if they are shown enough evidence that they can see.
Theists and creationists can, for the most part, not. Many of them are completely incapable of changing their minds under any circumstances and will simply either ignore or deny or dismiss or lie and intentionally misinterpret and mislead any other real evidence to show them they're wrong out of hand.
Now that statement in and of itself is not a biased statement. It is a description of behavior and also is not a moral evaluation.

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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 47 of 142 (613459)
04-25-2011 2:40 PM


Your a troll right ?
33. ARGUMENT FROM META-SMUGNESS
(1) Fuck you.
(2) Therefore, God exists.
really ?
I'm so sick and tired of people calling me a troll over disagreeing with them.
You're being very dishonest now. Yes, there are many many theists like this. I find it very telling that you pick this one out of hundreds of arguments and bash me with it.
But hey, at least you looked at the page.
As far as your other claims go...
Because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We were created by an invisible being that wants to micromanage our lives down to the color of clothes we wear and how we tie our shoes is a very extraordinary claim. And the only real evidence that will satisfy many people is for God himself to come out of heaven and show how he created the world.
Not any claims and argumentation by creationists.
And if there is any real bias in science, it's ebcause of theists constantly attacking it and trying to force it to teach what their religion teaches, and under those circumstances would be rightfully and justly deserved.
And I'm an atheist who is not so sure about evolution myself. A lot of it is very hard for me to understand.
I am also of the belief that evolution is incompatible with creation. Because a complete omnipotent God does not need evolution. He created the entire universe out of nothing, so why would he need evolution? It makes no sense to say that God created evolution. It's complete and utter sophistry.
But by far I find the theists and creationists far more dishonest about their arguments and claims than evolutionists so i give them far more credibility.
And all you're doing is trying to turn the argument around.
And
I see people here define the words so that ''evidence of creationism'' is impossible. People claim that ''creationism isn't scientific, because it is unfalsifiable'' and then turn around and that the claims of creationism have been refuted, and therefore falsified.
Shows you do not understand falsification. I don't fully understand it myself.
And yes, I can see that you are now a theist. Because your statements about evolutionism causing atheism is a typical theists belief that has no basis in fact.
Edited by Tram law, : No reason given.

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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 54 of 142 (613467)
04-25-2011 3:14 PM


Except creationist don't usually say does such micro-managing.
Yes, indeed, most theists do. From the Catholic rules on having sex to theists demanding that you dress up in a suit and tie for going to church when it is a house of worship and not a place to show off.
And in fact we get these rules from the Bible itself:
A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this. (NIV, Deuteronomy 22:5)
Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together. (NIV, Deuteronomy 22:11)
But that's not the point and we're getting away from the original topic at hand.

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 58 of 142 (613473)
04-25-2011 3:28 PM


because I think evolution is obviously false when examined honestly.
Evolution was examined in a court of law several times in an honest fashion and was shown to be true, beginning with the famous Scopes Trial and up until Selman vs Cobb County School District and the Dover Panda trial, and found to be factual.
Edited by Tram law, : No reason given.

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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 63 of 142 (613480)
04-25-2011 4:24 PM


Uh, not quite.
Except in order to determine those things evolution did have to be examined in a court of law, did it not?
Edited by Tram law, : No reason given.

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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


(1)
Message 67 of 142 (613489)
04-25-2011 4:51 PM


Well, no, since I said that an evolution is a requirement for atheism.
No it isn't. What you have here is what's called a positive correlation, not a cause and effect.
Being an evolutionist is not a requirement for being an atheist. They are completely different things.
Atheism has been around far longer than evolution, and John Locke argued against it in his Essay Concerning Human Understanding as well as a few other writings.
He was born in 1632 and died in 1704.
Other examples include Russia. Under Stalin anybody trying to study or teach evolution were sent to the gulags to die. Early 20th century communist leaders were strictly opposed to evolution and many of them were atheists.
Lysenkoism - Wikipedia

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 69 of 142 (613496)
04-25-2011 5:31 PM


is just an outright lie. the bible says no such things, and indeed portrays a natural world that obeys the every whim of god. god is in charge of everything:
That creates a huge problem and trap. If God is in charge of everything, , then that means he is responsible for all evil on this planet and kills thousands of people in earthquakes and other natural disasters. If he is not responsible for all evil, then that could mean he is not omnipotent and Satan could be stronger than him. And that means he is not a kind and loving God, nor is he a perfect God, and is indeed petty, killing hundreds of thousands of people each year just on a whim.
Why would anyone serve a being like that? I could not, even if I did believe such a being existed.
But that's going off subject.

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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 93 of 142 (613559)
04-26-2011 6:10 AM


But it goes more then that, if the facts did not allow for evolution to be possible, then I contend that the consistent atheist would have three option:
Except there's one extremely big hole in your generalizations and attacks upon atheism.
A lack of belief in something is not dependent upon the belief of something else in order to justifya lack of belief in something.
That's all atheism is, is a lack of belief in God or religion. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Just like having a lack of belief in Santa Clause and the tooth fairy and Harry Potter. This is something no Theist can understand and always have to demonize it like you and your kind have been doing in this very thread.
Because all of your arguments are so general that you can use them to show how Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, and Harry potter can exist.
And evolution is a fact. Just because you can't believe in it doesn't make you right. That's your other big flaw and it also seems to be a common one in people like you. And that flaw is "because I don't like it as well as I don't understand it it just can not be true no matter what".
If you were honest you'd realize this and not try to turn this around against atheism.
There is nothing wrong with not having a belief in God. If there is then it defeats the purpose of having free will.
If we're supposed to blindly follow God to the letter of the law, then he shouldn't have given us free will.

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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 106 of 142 (613594)
04-26-2011 11:10 AM


To slevesque
You are not even discussing. You are making grandiose claims that you and only you have the entire truth on evolution and atheism and that only your definitions are correct and anybody else are being dishonest when they don't agree with you. You are not even considering real evidence to show you are wrong, you can't not conceive of what atheism is and that it is not a requirement to believe in evolution to do so as one example.
I do not deny reality. I deny how it is interpreted by others.
So what did the Pope really mean when he said this:
"In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points.... Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studieswhich was neither planned nor soughtconstitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.
And as well as:
We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the 'project' of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementaryrather than mutually exclusiverealities.
— Cardinal Ratzinger, In the Beginning: A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall [Eerdmans, 1986, 1995], see especially pages 41—58
Edited by Tram law, : fixed quotes
Edited by Tram law, : fixed quotes
Edited by Tram law, : No reason given.

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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 110 of 142 (613630)
04-26-2011 1:36 PM


If you continue to make general replies I will assume you are just being an asshole and will consider that whenever you post anything.
Then I'll have to consider you a retard for not being able to follow a discussion when I am directly quoting a specific point. You want to be an asshole, I'll just be an asshole right back. Especially when I am not trying to be an asshole and there are no rules in the FAQ that says I must use the general reply button. And I'll treat you accordingly. In other words, screw you.
No, the fault is yours and I will respond how I see fit.
You can consider that being an asshole if you wish.

Replies to this message:
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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 113 of 142 (613633)
04-26-2011 1:51 PM


No, you don't.

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 116 of 142 (613639)
04-26-2011 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by New Cat's Eye
04-26-2011 1:58 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
Hey, I apologize to you and other members of this board. I was not trying to be an asshole, but I will not be insulted over something extremely petty such as not responding with a reply thing, especially when there are no hard rules in the FAQ that says I must do so.
You guys are far smarter than I am. I am just a layman and you guys are the intellectual elite. You should be smart enough to realize that I am using a direct quote and you should be smart enough to figure out who that quote belongs to.
Now, other than this post, because one person got really upset over this insignificant and petty issue and insulted me for no reason, I feel no need to comply with this request.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-26-2011 1:58 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by AZPaul3, posted 04-26-2011 2:14 PM Tram law has replied
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