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Author Topic:   Existence
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 9 of 1229 (614391)
05-04-2011 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
04-29-2011 12:05 PM


From dictionary.com:
quote:
—noun
1. the state or fact of existing; being.
Source
From the free dicgtionary:
quote:
1. The fact or state of existing; being.
Source
quote:
The question is:
Is existence responsible for bringing into existence all that exists?
Based on the definition of "existence" you have chosen the answer must be "no". Your definition refers to an unspecified something existing i.e. in the state of existing, the fact of it's existence or of it having being. How could the mere fact of an unspecified something existing - in itself - cause anything to be brought into existence ?
quote:
If not, then what is responsible for bringing into existence all that exists.
Obviously nothing could be responsible for bringing itself into existence. Therefore nothing that exists could be responsible for bringing into existence all that exists. Think about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2011 12:05 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 05-04-2011 12:33 PM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 17 of 1229 (614467)
05-04-2011 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ICANT
05-04-2011 12:33 PM


Re: Existence
quote:
What does the conclusion have to do with the first statement?
I did and have for a long time thought about it.
It's simple.
If all that exists was brought into existence by the fact that this something existed then there cannot be anything that was not. It was not. Therefore it cannot exist.
quote:
Now if according to your statement above that nothing that exists could be responsible for bringing into existence all that exists, what caused existence to begin to exist.
The existence of something - which is what you are talking about according to your definitions in the OP - comes into existence along with the something. Presumably whatever caused the something to exist causes that existence to begin to exist, although I think that talking about existences existing is unnecessarily confusing.
quote:
According to that statement the universe and us do not exist.
That is completely false. All it says is that it is not possible that the everything that exists was brought into existence by something that currently exists. It does not rule out a large portion of "everything" being brought into existence by something that currently exists nor does it rule out everything that exists being brought into existence by something that did exist but no longer does. Nor does it rule out the universe not having been brought into existence at all, and we being brought into existence by different entities within the universe. There are many possibilities that you have failed to think of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 05-04-2011 12:33 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ICANT, posted 05-04-2011 2:07 PM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 32 of 1229 (614504)
05-04-2011 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICANT
05-04-2011 2:07 PM


Re: Existence
quote:
I really don't think there are any possibilities that I have not thought about.
Then you admit to intentionally misrepresenting my words. It really is that simple. Either you didn't know of the other possibilities I listed, or you dishonestly decided to pretend that they did not exist.
The rest of your post is utterly irrelevant to anything I have said, since nothing I have said relies on a distinction between things which exist as a part of our universe and things which exist "outside" of it.
I have established that it is impossible for anything which exists to have brought everything that exists into existence. And for all your thinking you weren't able to work that out by yourself.
In fact you haven't even given any reason whatsoever to think that an "existence" as defined in the OP could bring anything into existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ICANT, posted 05-04-2011 2:07 PM ICANT has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 42 of 1229 (614656)
05-05-2011 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Rahvin
05-05-2011 4:47 PM


Re: Cause
You must remember that ICANT's method of understanding the Bible is to insist that it says what he thinks it says and ignore every objection - by his own admission. (Or at least he was doing that and insisting that he was "only trying to understand the Bible").
It's not the bible that is inerrant, it's his interpretation, even if it isn't even a vlid interpretation. But that's what so-called "Biblical inerrantists" are like. Pretty much all of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Rahvin, posted 05-05-2011 4:47 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by arachnophilia, posted 05-05-2011 5:03 PM PaulK has not replied

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