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Author Topic:   Quick Questions, Short Answers - No Debate
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 16 of 341 (614179)
05-02-2011 3:06 PM


How should one respond to the question; "If we came from apes why are there still apes?"
Also, "Does DNA evidence show that evolution can't happen?"

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by fearandloathing, posted 05-02-2011 3:11 PM Tram law has not replied
 Message 18 by subbie, posted 05-02-2011 3:11 PM Tram law has not replied
 Message 19 by Huntard, posted 05-02-2011 3:14 PM Tram law has replied
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 05-02-2011 4:18 PM Tram law has not replied

fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 17 of 341 (614180)
05-02-2011 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tram law
05-02-2011 3:06 PM


Tram law writes:
How should one respond to the question; "If we came from apes why are there still apes?"
We didn't come from modern apes, we have a common ancestor with modern apes.

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tram law, posted 05-02-2011 3:06 PM Tram law has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 18 of 341 (614181)
05-02-2011 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tram law
05-02-2011 3:06 PM


How should one respond to the question; "If we came from apes why are there still apes?"
If you're descended from your parents, why are your parents still alive?
Also, "Does DNA evidence show that evolution can't happen?"
No, DNA evidence supports the ToE.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 19 of 341 (614182)
05-02-2011 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tram law
05-02-2011 3:06 PM


Tram law writes:
How should one respond to the question; "If we came from apes why are there still apes?"
Well, first of all, we are still apes. Second of all, when people say "we come from apes" they do not mean modern apes, but the common ancestor we share with them. Thirdly, if there are dogs, why are there still wolves? What I mean by that is that just because something is descended from it and different from its ancestors, does not mean that the niche the ancestors filled can now no longer be filled by that ancestor.
Also, "Does DNA evidence show that evolution can't happen?"
With laughter. people who say this don't understand genetics at all. They are so hopelessly wrong you should question whether or not a conversation with them has any point at all. You could tell them that DNA is actually one of the strongest (if not the strongest) evidence we have for evolution. But really, all you can do is recommend they learn what genetics is actually all about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tram law, posted 05-02-2011 3:06 PM Tram law has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 20 of 341 (614186)
05-02-2011 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Huntard
05-02-2011 3:14 PM


So what resources to show the evidence for DNA are there that he will be able to understand?
And yes, I do question whether he can understand anything about evolution at all. For example, I constantly tell him that adaption is a mechanism of evolution and most scientists agree with that. he says there are scientists who do not agree and refute it to show that Evolution does not exist and will constantly maintain that adaption is separate from evolution.
I've done everything I know how to show him how wrong he is. But he still keeps on repeating the same things over and over again.
Edited by Tram law, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 05-02-2011 3:54 PM Tram law has not replied
 Message 22 by fearandloathing, posted 05-02-2011 4:18 PM Tram law has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 21 of 341 (614194)
05-02-2011 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tram law
05-02-2011 3:35 PM


Need new friends
Sounds like it is time for you to find a better class of friends.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 22 of 341 (614200)
05-02-2011 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tram law
05-02-2011 3:35 PM


I've done everything I know how to show him how wrong he is. But he still keeps on repeating the same things over and over again.
Ask him to present evidence to support what he says. You know how it works.
It does get old when someone asks same questions over and over, then asks but why, but why, but why. If said person is too stupid to do their own research, then it is probably a waste of time talking to them at all about the subject.

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Tram law, posted 05-02-2011 3:35 PM Tram law has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 23 of 341 (614201)
05-02-2011 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tram law
05-02-2011 3:06 PM


Tram law writes:
How should one respond to the question; "If we came from apes why are there still apes?"
Change the question to, "If we came from O'Learys why are there still O'Learys?" and see how hard it is to answer.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 24 of 341 (614382)
05-03-2011 11:27 PM


I'm currently reading "The Encyclopedia Of Evolution" by Stanley A. Rice. I'm reading the entry on Adapation, and it says this about expatiation as one of the causes of Adaption:
Some exaptations are the side effects of natural selection
acting upon developmental patterns (see developmental
evolution). One possible example of such an exaptation
is the human chin. Modern humans have chins, but earlier
hominids did not, and other ape species did and do not. Some
scientists tried to imagine how the chin might have aided the
survival and reproduction of the human species. One scientist
claimed the chin, when stuck out, constitutes a threat gesture.
One of the major characteristics of human evolution has been
neoteny, the retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood.
Neoteny affected the growth patterns of the bones of
the skull, and natural selection favored jaws and teeth suitable
for an omnivorous diet in human ancestors. The chin
was a side effect of different facial bone and jaw growth
patterns. The chin was probably not, itself, selected for anything;
it could be considered an exaptation rather than an
adaptation, because natural selection acted upon neoteny, not
directly upon the chin.
And I'm having trouble visualizing and understanding which hominids didn't have a chin. Which hominids didn't have a chin and what did they look like without one in comparison to a hominid that does have one?
And yes, I like to read encyclopedias.
Here's the link to the book for anyone interested:
http://www.amazon.com/...ion-Stanley-Ph-d-Rice/dp/0816055157
I don't fully understand expatiation either.
Edit:
Sorry I forgot to use the reply button.
Edited by Tram law, : No reason given.
Edited by Tram law, : spelling
Edited by Tram law, : Another spelling

Replies to this message:
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 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-03-2011 11:55 PM Tram law has not replied
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-04-2011 8:40 PM Tram law has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 25 of 341 (614384)
05-03-2011 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Tram law
05-03-2011 11:27 PM


On chins
None of the earlier species had a chin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Tram law, posted 05-03-2011 11:27 PM Tram law has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 341 (614385)
05-03-2011 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Tram law
05-03-2011 11:27 PM


Compare and contrast.
The chin is the bit that sticks out at the front of the lower jaw in the human. Apes don't have a chin in this sense, they just have distal lower jaws.
This is, arguably, a confusing use of the word "chin". Unfortunately the precise anatomical term is "mental eminence", which is also deeply confusing.
Anyway, when people talk about humans having chins and apes not having chins, they mean the sticky-out bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Tram law, posted 05-03-2011 11:27 PM Tram law has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 27 of 341 (614386)
05-04-2011 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Adequate
05-03-2011 11:55 PM


Another picture, this one of Neanderthal and Cro Magnon:

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Replies to this message:
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Tram law
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 28 of 341 (614432)
05-04-2011 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Coyote
05-04-2011 12:10 AM


So would the chin be a mistake in adaption? There doesn't seem to be any use for it, and I can't really see how it would be threatening, but actually would look more comical than threatening.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by fearandloathing, posted 05-04-2011 11:42 AM Tram law has replied
 Message 30 by 1.61803, posted 05-04-2011 11:48 AM Tram law has not replied
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 05-04-2011 11:55 AM Tram law has not replied
 Message 36 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-04-2011 7:46 PM Tram law has not replied

fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 29 of 341 (614443)
05-04-2011 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tram law
05-04-2011 10:33 AM


Hi tram,
A quick search netted me this, see what you think.
see this

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tram law, posted 05-04-2011 10:33 AM Tram law has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Tram law, posted 05-04-2011 11:56 AM fearandloathing has replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 30 of 341 (614448)
05-04-2011 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tram law
05-04-2011 10:33 AM


Tram law writes:
So would the chin be a mistake in adaption? There doesn't seem to be any use for it,...
I use my chin to secure my motorcycle helmet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tram law, posted 05-04-2011 10:33 AM Tram law has not replied

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