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Author Topic:   Support for Louisiana repeal effort
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 31 of 108 (615053)
05-09-2011 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Rahvin
05-09-2011 7:54 PM


Re: Evidence
All you people tell me is I don't understand anything and I must be for this and that. So it doesn't really matter what I say or do now, does it?
So why should I be concerned?
It's not going to do anything for me.
Edited by Tram law, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Rahvin, posted 05-09-2011 7:54 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Rahvin, posted 05-09-2011 8:09 PM Tram law has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 32 of 108 (615055)
05-09-2011 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Tram law
05-09-2011 7:59 PM


Re: Evidence
If you're not going to debate, then feel free to stop posting, Tram.
This place is specifically set up for people to argue. That means we wont generally agree. When you say "evidence schmevidence," you're going to see some responses. When you say that evolution is science fiction, people are going to tell you that you're very, very wrong.
And in this particular debate, we've been talking about rights and what those rights mean for schools and kids and states and general citizens. You've been presenting your side based on very, very loosely defined ideas of rights, while I've been relying on the actual rights granted by the Constitution. I've been responding to just about everything you say, and you ignore virtually entire posts of mine.
It;s okay to be wrong, Tram. The point of a debate is to find out who is wrong and who is right, or if both are right or both are wrong, so that everyone can learn and adopt stronger beliefs. If you prove me wrong, I'll be glad, Tram, because I'll come out of the debate with a more accurate view of the world. Why should you be afraid of being told you don;t understand? Wouldn't a better course of action be to say something that proves you DO understand, or to ask for help in understanding?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 7:59 PM Tram law has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 8:32 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 33 of 108 (615057)
05-09-2011 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Rahvin
05-09-2011 8:09 PM


Re: Evidence
No, it's not okay to be wrong. Every time I'm wrong all people do is get pissed off at me and be rude to me, make it personal, and call me a a child, tell me I don't understand, and tell me I have to sit down and take it.
So no, it's not okay to be wrong.
A person must be right one million percent of the time or he's nothing but a retard, a jerk, a child, or a monster.
Debate is not supposed to be personal, it's not supposed to be rude, it's not supposed to be hostile. That's what I've been taught all my life. But that's not how things are. People get rude, they get hostile, they get personal.
Debate is supposed to be for exchange of information, and to learn about things.
But hey, what do I know.
I don't mind a debate, I just don't like it when people get rude, hostile, or personal when I am not trying to be.
Can you understand that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Rahvin, posted 05-09-2011 8:09 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 05-09-2011 8:59 PM Tram law has replied
 Message 36 by Theodoric, posted 05-09-2011 9:01 PM Tram law has not replied
 Message 40 by Rahvin, posted 05-10-2011 12:31 PM Tram law has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 34 of 108 (615059)
05-09-2011 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tram law
05-09-2011 7:20 PM


Any evidence at all?
It doesn't matter if it is a fact or not. People have their beliefs when it comes to fact, and schools have become a great tool for indoctrination of those beliefs. After all, if homosexual literature telling why it's okay to be homosexual, which is a belief and not a fact, then it should be okay to teach that creationism is okay to believe, otherwise, it is discrimination.
Please show evidence of schools distributing "homosexual literature". What is "homosexual literature" anyway? So do you think homosexuality is a choice people make? If so, why would they make that choice?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 7:20 PM Tram law has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 35 of 108 (615060)
05-09-2011 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tram law
05-09-2011 8:32 PM


Re: Evidence
We throw elbows here, Tram, frequently on purpose but just as frequently out of brevity. If every post had to be "if I may" this and "by your leave" that, it would simply take too long.
And as much as you complain about our rudeness, any attempt to correct you on any issue, on etiquette, or basically any other thing, gets met with absolutely nothing but immaturity from you.
We get it. You're just gonna do whatever you feel like and not listen to anybody. That's fine. But you can't be that and be thin-skinned to boot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 8:32 PM Tram law has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tram law, posted 05-10-2011 9:34 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 36 of 108 (615061)
05-09-2011 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tram law
05-09-2011 8:32 PM


Re: Evidence
Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 8:32 PM Tram law has not replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 37 of 108 (615066)
05-09-2011 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tram law
05-09-2011 7:20 PM


Homo literature.
Tram law writes:
After all, if homosexual literature telling why it's okay to be homosexual, which is a belief and not a fact, then it should be okay to teach that creationism is okay to believe, otherwise, it is discrimination.
What you might be thinking of here are anti-bullying measures that some schools have been instituting lately. Some kids apparently need to be reminded that it's not okay to beat up some other kid because he or she is gay or might be gay or kinda looks gay.
Of course, it's not okay for kids to be beating each other up at all. I think that the point is not so much to single out gay or gay-like kids as some special protected class, but to make sure that they're as protected from bullying as any other kid.
No-one's trying to impose any opinion here, other than the notion that there's no special exemption that makes harassing some kids not against the rules.

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 7:20 PM Tram law has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 38 of 108 (615075)
05-10-2011 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tram law
05-09-2011 7:20 PM


The common good is determined by the masses. Free speech is besides the point. Especially if it's harmful speech. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any hate speech laws.
Last I checked, there weren't. Has someone repealed the First Amendment while I wasn't looking? Tsk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 7:20 PM Tram law has not replied

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 39 of 108 (615094)
05-10-2011 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
05-09-2011 8:59 PM


Re: Evidence
{Non-topic stuff - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide plus note.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 05-09-2011 8:59 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 05-11-2011 8:31 PM Tram law has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 40 of 108 (615108)
05-10-2011 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tram law
05-09-2011 8:32 PM


Re: Evidence
Tram law writes:
No, it's not okay to be wrong. Every time I'm wrong all people do is get pissed off at me and be rude to me, make it personal, and call me a a child, tell me I don't understand, and tell me I have to sit down and take it.
Have I been pissed off and rude to you in this thread? What about the "quick questions/answers" thread?
Tram, people don't generally get angry at people for being wrong. What heightens frustrations is when a person continues to insist that they're right, even when they've been proven wrong. That means the person isn't learning, isn't even debating, they're just repeating themselves.
But really, this is without a doubt the calmest debate forum I've seen by far. People here get a little snippy, sure...but we don't do flamewars here. At EvCforum, you'll never get called a brainless puddle of syphilitic vaginal discharge, for example (and that's a mild version of what happens elsewhere).
There's going to be some condescension and some occasional rudeness. We're talking over the internet, no tin person, so we lose out on all the other communication cues like voice inflection that let us know when someone is kidding vs being an ass. There's just going to be lots of "you're wrong, you don;t understand the material, and here's why." It's the nature of the beast.
But this place is also an excellent opportunity to learn. We have some very smart people here on various sides of the debates. We have actual scientists, biology teachers, physics professors, theologians, and a bunch of laymen all eager to discuss just about any topic you can dream up. How awesome is it to have actual physicists like cavediver and Son Goku around to help us understand in layman's terms complex cosmology like the Big Bang?!
So no, it's not okay to be wrong.
It has to be okay to be wrong, Tram. If you can't admit when you're wrong, you can never improve. However accurate your beliefs are right now, that's how accurate they'll be forever. You can never ever improve yourself, you can never ever learn something new, unless you allow yourself to be wrong when convinced by a preponderance of evidence and well-reasoned argument.
A person must be right one million percent of the time or he's nothing but a retard, a jerk, a child, or a monster.
That's not true - I've been proven wrong multiple times around here, and generally people only call me a jerk when I'm telling them that they're wrong.
A person who's wrong isn't an idiot, they're just wrong. Nobody knows everything.
A person who continues to stubbornly insist that his wrong ideas are right after being told he's wrong and why is an idiot. See ICANT.
Debate is not supposed to be personal, it's not supposed to be rude, it's not supposed to be hostile. That's what I've been taught all my life. But that's not how things are. People get rude, they get hostile, they get personal.
Welcome to human interaction. If you can't take occasional rudeness or hostility, then perhaps a debate board, a place set up specifically for people to argue, might not be for you.
Debate is supposed to be for exchange of information, and to learn about things.
Then why not use it as such?
I don't mind a debate, I just don't like it when people get rude, hostile, or personal when I am not trying to be.
Can you understand that?
Sure - but I also understand that there are real people on the other side of the board, and that not everyone is going to be prim and proper all the time. So I relax. If I feel like I've been attacked unjustly, I either attack right back or take an hour or a day before I respond to let myself calm down. Nobody holds a gun to our heads and forces us to be here - this is a hobby, something we do for fun and education. So have some fun and learn something!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 8:32 PM Tram law has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Tram law, posted 05-10-2011 12:54 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 41 of 108 (615112)
05-10-2011 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Rahvin
05-10-2011 12:31 PM


Re: Evidence
1.
You were a bit rude to me when asked those personal questions "Am I against x". Every single time I get asked questions like those, every single time I answer them, somebody zaps me with an insult. Otherwise, no you haven't.
2.
It's never been okay for me to be wrong. Every single time I'm wrong people call me a retard or a child or insult me to no end.
3.
I have been trying to use it as such. And I have learned a lot more about evolution and the conflict with creation thanks to you and other people answering my questions. I also suck at debate because I don't have a very good education amid other things that are way too personal for me to discuss on a board.
And thank you for answering my questions.
But no, it's never okay for me to be wrong.
Ever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Rahvin, posted 05-10-2011 12:31 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Rahvin, posted 05-10-2011 2:16 PM Tram law has replied
 Message 45 by Theodoric, posted 05-10-2011 4:05 PM Tram law has not replied
 Message 46 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-10-2011 6:59 PM Tram law has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 42 of 108 (615128)
05-10-2011 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Tram law
05-10-2011 12:54 PM


Re: Evidence
Tram law writes:
1.
You were a bit rude to me when asked those personal questions "Am I against x". Every single time I get asked questions like those, every single time I answer them, somebody zaps me with an insult. Otherwise, no you haven't.
The point was the shock value, Tram. Obviously you don't hate free speech or the freedom of religion - very, very few people actually do. The intent was to make you think about whether your positions were actually in line with supporting those freedoms. I wasn't going to follow up with an insult - I was going to follow up to your predicted "of course I don;t hate free speech" by driving home that free speech means the ability to express one's opinion even if it's "not your business," and that donating money is a protected form of speech.
2.
It's never been okay for me to be wrong. Every single time I'm wrong people call me a retard or a child or insult me to no end.
We're all wrong, Tram. No person is omniscient. Science in particular and learning in general are about finding less wrong answers to our questions...and then someday, if new information comes, abandoning those answers for ones that are even less wrong. Admitting you were wrong and changing your mind is a big deal - it's hard for everyone. But you have to be able to do it, or you'll never learn, never improve.
It's okay to be wrong. It's okay to say "I don't know." It's okay to ask questions.
The only caveat is that, when you make a claim (as opposed to asking a question), you need to be able to back it up. Sometimes that takes the form of poking logical holes in an opponent's argument. Sometimes it means doing some research and finding some studies or other facts to back up the claim.
If you just say things like "evolution is science fiction," you're going to get some pushback and mockery. Imagine what would happen if I went to a Christian forum and said "your silly god is nothing but a fairy tale." I imagine I'd get a few calm responses that try to convert me, and a bunch of others like "the fool hath said in his heart, 'there is no God';" or "you're going to burn in hell, moron," and so on.
3.
I have been trying to use it as such. And I have learned a lot more about evolution and the conflict with creation thanks to you and other people answering my questions. I also suck at debate because I don't have a very good education amid other things that are way too personal for me to discuss on a board.
You don't need a better education to become better at debating, Tram - you can learn a lot right here. The key to getting better is to participate - learn through experience and reading other people's posts what works and what doesn't, what is convincing and what is not. You can learn about logic and fallacies, about evidence and writing. Like I said earlier, I don't have a Bachelor's degree. I was a college failure, in fact, because I was a lazy asshole and I maintain that I was an idiot until around 25. Education is great, and I certainly don't mean to say that nobody needs a college degree, but there are other places and ways to learn, and this is one of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Tram law, posted 05-10-2011 12:54 PM Tram law has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Tram law, posted 05-10-2011 2:26 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 43 of 108 (615131)
05-10-2011 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Rahvin
05-10-2011 2:16 PM


Re: Evidence
So, everything has to be consistent without any contradictions? That's the only way a belief can be valid?
Nobody can be that perfect.
And the thing about argumentation is that anybody who is skilled at it can make anything be a contradiction.
And 2, I'm also a very facetious guy when I feel I'm being rude to.
People have a hard time with sarcasm and facetiousness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Rahvin, posted 05-10-2011 2:16 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Rahvin, posted 05-10-2011 2:41 PM Tram law has not replied
 Message 53 by menes777, posted 05-11-2011 4:51 PM Tram law has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 44 of 108 (615133)
05-10-2011 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Tram law
05-10-2011 2:26 PM


Re: Evidence
Tram law writes:
So, everything has to be consistent without any contradictions? That's the only way a belief can be valid?
Nobody can be that perfect.
It's the only way a statement can be logically valid, yes, unless there are additional conditions. A reason that the normal rule doesn't apply in a given case.
To tie that back to our free speech discussion, in order to support free speech, you have to agree that speech should not be restricted regardless of content or who the speaker is...but you can add the condition "unless that speech is used to directly incite violence or cause a riot or otherwise pose a direct threat to public safety."
Nobody's perfect, but the proper response to having an inconsistency pointed out is to address the inconsistency, not to say "hey, I'm not perfect," and then continue right on with an inconsistent belief.
And the thing about argumentation is that anybody who is skilled at it can make anything be a contradiction.
Sometimes it can feel like that, yes. Generally that's what we call a "straw man," where the other person is distorting your argument into something you didn't actually say, and then arguing against that "straw man" instead of your real argument.
The proper response is to point out that your opponent is arguing against a position you don't actually hold and never expressed. Point out that perhaps he doesn't understand your argument in the first place, or perhaps his arguments are too weak to stand up to your real position. Then restate your real position as clearly as possible, preferably mentioning the specific differences between your actual position and the twisted, false "straw man" argument your opponent set up.
One of the best things about a written format debate like this is that you can go back and quote yourself, then quote your opponent and point out exactly how you're being misrepresented. It's easier and more effective than a verbal debate, where you can be caught flatfooted and left saying "that's not what I meant!" while your opponent continues to direct the discussion on to the next point.
Remember that your opponent doesn't have sole control of where the debate goes - you're a participant too, and if you want to focus in on a point that your opponent wants to leave behind, feel free to redirect right back to that point. Don;t let your words get twisted - when someone tries, don't just say "you're twisting my argument," show how and show the rest of us that your opponent is wrong.
And 2, I'm also a very facetious guy when I feel I'm being rude to.
People have a hard time with sarcasm and facetiousness.
Most of us are the same way. Sometimes the cycle of sarcasm can escalate things until everybody's just all pissed off. The best thing to do? Relax. Maybe take a break. In your next response, say "alright, let's you and me cut the sarcastic bullshit. Here's my position. Here's your position. I think you're wrong because..."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Tram law, posted 05-10-2011 2:26 PM Tram law has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 45 of 108 (615142)
05-10-2011 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Tram law
05-10-2011 12:54 PM


Re: Evidence
Every single time I'm wrong people call me a retard or a child or insult me to no end.
Please show where this has happened

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Tram law, posted 05-10-2011 12:54 PM Tram law has not replied

  
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