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Author Topic:   Atheism and family shame
Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 1 of 31 (615649)
05-15-2011 1:18 PM


Hello EVC'ers
When I recently became active again on Facebook I swore to myself I'd avoid politics and religion. However, it didn't take long before my status updates moved away from mundane tat like "Charlie Sheen is an idiot" to "Kirk Cameron and his pet crocoduck are idiots". As the weeks went on I felt more comfortable bringing up political and religious issues.
Now, in the last 2-3 weeks, I've managed to completely alienate one family member (based on political comments) and create a rift with my own mother (based on religious comments). I should point out that none of my comments were mean-spirited IMHO, but they were perhaps blunt.
I feel a weird mix of anger, resentment and victimisation as a result:
Anger because I should be able to express my feelings/opinions on my own wall in Facebook without repercussion.
Resentment because I feel like my mother is disappointed in me due to my atheism, whereas in my opinion she should be proud that I am thinking for myself rather than just following the flock.
Victimisation because I don't see why I should be cornered and scolded for my atheism, which should be, in my view, the default position we all start our existence with.
We decide at some point in our lives to believe in a God... usually at a very young age... usually based on nothing more than the fact that our parents and peers hold such beliefs. Some of us later decide that such deep beliefs should not be simply handed down carte blanche, but rather should be independently arrived at after thorough and robust examination.
So... I wish that my mother could be very, very proud of me... for engaging in a sceptical evaluation of these deep and important matters, for using my brain to think rather than my gut, for being an independent thinker rather than a sheep. Instead... I get the feeling I'm a disappointment to her... one whom she might describe as a lost, corrupted or confused.
It's NOT FAIR lol.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 14 by AZPaul3, posted 05-16-2011 1:26 AM Briterican has replied
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2 of 31 (615650)
05-15-2011 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Briterican
05-15-2011 1:18 PM


Facebook
Another reason to stay far away from Facebook.
I have many reasons not to be on Facebook. Stories like this just help confirm my decision

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Briterican, posted 05-15-2011 1:18 PM Briterican has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 31 (615656)
05-15-2011 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Briterican
05-15-2011 1:18 PM


Life Goes On
just tell Mum that IF God exists, He exists regardless of what you think. Im quite angry right now, but life and reality go on regardless of my lot in life or my beliefs.

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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 4 of 31 (615657)
05-15-2011 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Briterican
05-15-2011 1:18 PM


I have had a couple people un-friend me for the same reasons, it is sad that some people are so narrow minded. I posted " Storm" on there, after you posted it on here, and was surprised at a few of the remarks. I am sure that my retorts are what caused a few un- friendings to occur.
I no longer remark on any but my closest friends posts,and try hard to avoid anything but the lightest of topics to comment on, FB is a weird place anyhow, I don't go on there too much anymore because I feel I cant be myself, its more like FAKEBOOK.
Also being a plumber in this economy is tough enough, I don't need to alienate any potential customers, lol, some people automatically think atheist are akin to devil worship. When it comes to making a dollar I don't care what you believe, but I am sure some people would call someone else as opposed to having an atheist working in their home.

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 5 of 31 (615658)
05-15-2011 2:14 PM


I'm 29 and only recently had a religious discussion with my parents. They were the type that would, year after year, say around xmas time or easter "we are going to go to church for the holidays" and it never happened. They were far from religious folk. Christmas and easter were just times for the family to get together. However, when we had the talk about religion, my mom got upset and said I was being rude and an ass. It turns out though, that she is somewhat of a deist. She believes in a higher power and not necessarily the judeo xtian god. My dad on the other hand, does believe in the bible and shit, just not overly so.
I think it has become the societal default position to believe in gawd (at least with the older generation. Our time is near), so when we say we don't, it comes as a shock.
It is what it is mate. Atheists shall soon take over the world. Just make sure to do your part and feast on as many xtian babies as possible to thin the herd.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

Replies to this message:
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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 6 of 31 (615659)
05-15-2011 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by fearandloathing
05-15-2011 2:00 PM


We need Brainbook
Thanks for the comments folks.
I agree that Facebook is crap, it is just a good way for me to keep appraised of my family's activities since an ocean separates us. Unfortunately I find 99% of it incredibly boring.
And yes fear... this strange correlation between "atheist" and "evildoing baby eater" unfortunately exists despite us being in the 21st century. I simply don't get it... I tried to explain to my mother that my opinion on the matter is in my opinion the default position, and that it is not I who have to justify my lack of belief, but rather the believers that have to justify their beliefs. The onus is on them, not me.
I suppose I should expect some of the flak since I don't tend to censor myself well... i.e. before I've thought through my comments I've already posted them lol... 9 times out of 10 this is fine... but that 1 out of 10 can be uncomfortable, as I then feel like I was somehow insensitive. Oh well
I'm beginning to believe that I should bail from Facebook altogether and search out some sort of "Brainbook"... where people can discuss topics that rise to a higher level of importance than "OMG Ashton Kutcher is replacing Charlie Sheen on 2.5 men!!!"... sigh.

This message is a reply to:
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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 7 of 31 (615660)
05-15-2011 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by hooah212002
05-15-2011 2:14 PM


I'd like my baby medium rare please
hooah212002 writes:
It is what it is mate. Atheists shall soon take over the world. Just make sure to do your part and feast on as many xtian babies as possible to thin the herd.
LOL
How could I disagree with someone using Hitchens as their profile pic!?!
One of my favourite quotes from the good man...
Christopher Hitchens writes:
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species. It may be a long farewell, but it has begun and, like all farewells, should not be protracted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by hooah212002, posted 05-15-2011 2:14 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by articulett, posted 05-15-2011 3:31 PM Briterican has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 8 of 31 (615671)
05-15-2011 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Briterican
05-15-2011 1:18 PM


It's NOT FAIR lol.
Agreed, that it's not fair. But life isn't fair.
Like it, or not, atheists are a persecuted minority. And it is likely to get worse due to the fundamentalists Christians feeling threatened. But, in a way, that reaction is an indicator of progress.

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articulett
Member (Idle past 3371 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


Message 9 of 31 (615672)
05-15-2011 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Briterican
05-15-2011 2:16 PM


Re: I'd like my baby medium rare please
Although most of my friends on Facebook come from the atheist and skeptic community, I am careful not to post anything too political or atheistic because of family members (and the defensive reaction we've all come to know and expect from people who imagine themselves saved for what they believe.)
But your story is common:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Peq6lrMxY
Check out other videos of The Thinking Atheist. A lot of people are feeling isolated by coming to the conclusion that what they've been indoctrinated to believe isn't true-- but they are finding each other on the internet. The Atheist Nexus is a Facebook like forum specifically for atheists, in fact. There are lots of places you can be a strident (ha!) atheist without accidentally ruffling the feathers of family members-- you can ruffle the feathers of self important strangers on the internet instead-- and find some awesome, brilliant, funny, honest, like-minded people as well.
I use the "Debunking Christianity" website for my most arched criticisms of faith, but there are a growing number of places that allows atheists/progressives the freedom of speech that religionists and Tea Party types have assumed for themselves. When such people inflict their opinions upon me; I consider it a personal invitation for me to give my opinion of their opinion in return. As long as people keep their magical beliefs as private as they keep their fetishes, I'll assume they are rational and/or keep my opinions about their beliefs private as well. I tell people that I'm about as interested in their opinions and beliefs as they are interested in mine. I care much more about the truth. (The atheists are not the ones claiming divine knowledge.)
It is unfair. But things are changing. The truth will out.
Edited by articulett, : changed "respect" to "expect"
Edited by articulett, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Briterican, posted 05-15-2011 2:16 PM Briterican has replied

Replies to this message:
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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 10 of 31 (615674)
05-15-2011 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by articulett
05-15-2011 3:31 PM


Thanks
Many thanks articulett for the suggested websites... and to jar who pointed me to one as well.
EVC is fantastic, but I find that I'm "in over my head" on specifics heh... so I tend to gravitate mostly to the coffee house.
I probably ought to start by trying to be more active here again, and then check out these other sites as well.
Thanks for the video link, just watched it

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 11 of 31 (615705)
05-15-2011 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Briterican
05-15-2011 1:18 PM


One of the problems with the internet is that absolutely everything you post is public. If there's anything that you would not want somebody else to know, never-ever post it on-line.
Case in point. An atheist's son is old enough to be involved in Cub Scouts and wants to. Said atheist had himself been a scout and, despite religious misgivings towards the end of that experience even though religion was never a factor in my troop, sincerely believed in the principles of Scouting and in the benefits of the experience. Said atheist was then approached by the current leadership, which was burned out and starting to falter -- did I mention that this pack did not have any kind of Webelos program? -- to take on the role of Cubmaster. Hmm. Said atheist thought about it and researched it (did I mention that he had had college; as per classic Bill Cosby film, Bill Cosby himself, everyone who's graduated from college researches every question, such as childbirth), reading the actual BSA bylaws and rules & regulations, advancement guidelines, etc. In the end, he came to realize, especially with BSA's official "absolutely non-sectarian" rules and their refusal to even define what "Duty to God" is supposed to mean because that is entirely and strictly determined by the member's own religious background, that he could harmonize his atheism with the Boy Scouts. No real problem there.
Then the Randall twins hit the news and said atheist was taken totally aback by BSA's reaction which was completely contrary to their own rules. So said atheist, a college graduate, started researching the matter. And being a member of CompuServe, he lurked in CompuServe's Scouting forum and was further astounded at the vicious postings there, all of which were in direct violation of officially published BSA policies and rules. So he spoke out, directly quoting BSA policies and rules.
And one day, he was sadly informed by another BSA litagant in Chicago, also active on CompuServe, that all the postings on CompuServe had been passed on to the BSA lawyers, including said atheist's, and were being used as evidence in federal court. Said atheist was expelled from BSA after an odd phone conversation in which the local council's Scout Exec was mainly trying to establish that said atheist's beliefs were not the same as his own. The closest that said atheist could get as a reason for his expulsion was that he could not do his "Duty to God", which wasn't even a determination that BSA was supposed to make.
During all this, said atheist met a Unitarian minister and he joined the church, since he had shared the beliefs for the past 30 years of his life. According to officially published BSA policies, etc, the only person who has any say as to whether you fulfill your "duty to God" is your own religious leader, your minister. Said atheist's minister certified directly to BSA, in writing, that said atheist fulfilled his "duty to God" in accordance with Unitarian-universalist teachings. And BSA completely ignored him both times and every single time said atheist presented them with copies of his minister's letters to BSA.
Early on, said atheist's minister gave him a copy of BSA's official statement about Life Scout Paul Trout. Paul was a Unitarian and during his Life Scout board, his ideas about God, while in line with his Unitarian beliefs, were not in line with a brand-new BSA policy. You see, even though BSA officially excluded itself from defining "duty to God" or even "God", they had suddenly started to define "God" as a "Supreme Being", which is not necessarily in line with Unitarian-Universalist beliefs (nor with Buddhist beliefs, etc). In 1985, the hundreds of letters of protest pressured Chief Scout Exec Ben Love (remember that name) to reinstate Paul Trout, apologize to him publically, and rescind their new-fangled "Supreme Being" rule. Then in 1991, the exact same Ben Love had not only reinstated that verbotten "Supreme Being" rule, but he was using it with extreme prejudice against everybody despite thousands of letters of protest.
Funny thing about the Randall affair. The judge did find BSA guilty of discrimination, so it went to the state supreme court. In the meantime, they were allowed to continue to participate. They continued in said atheist's pack, while said atheist not only had implemented and run the pack's Webelos program, albeit with one dad who couldn't be involved acting as a straw leader, though they always had 100% parental sign-up for Members of Committee and enough MCs were always present at all Webelos functions to meet all official requirements. And, interestingly, this exact same atheist did more to promote the religious awards program than anyone else he had ever heard of. Because he really and honestly believed that everybody needs to know all that they can about what they believe in.
Here's how the Randalls turned out. While their case was pending, they continued to participate. And moved up into Boy Scouts. And progressed all the way up to their Eagle Board. At which time, the state supreme court suddenly decided that the law does not apply to the BSA. Not that they didn't discriminate, but rather that they were absolutely free to discriminate. At the same time, said atheist's case, which had been held pending all that time, was suddenly finally decided against him; even though he was promised the right to be informed of the final meeting in advance so that he could be present, none of that ever happened. And years before that, BSA had severed all connections with the Unitarians, in part because they had kept reminding BSA that it was violating its own rules. And since the Randall case had presented so many citations from BSA's own bylaws and rules & regulations, etc, that those BSA has since greatly restricted access to those publications. And they continue to maintain their false "requirement" for belief in a "Supreme Being". Even though they officially stated again in 1995 that that "requirement" doesn't exist -- as soon as BSA became aware of that official's statement, even though he was precisely the official to make such a statement, that official was immediately demoted.
And BSA continues in its evil ways. To the detriment of Scouting.
If there is something that you do not want to be made known, then do not announce it on-line. It sucks, but there you have it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Briterican, posted 05-15-2011 1:18 PM Briterican has replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 12 of 31 (615706)
05-15-2011 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by dwise1
05-15-2011 9:03 PM


Eagle Scout here
I am an Eagle Scout and even have the Catholic BSA religious awards Ad Altare Dei and Pope Pius XII. I acknowledged my Atheism at 18. I would very much like to be involved in Scouting, but the discriminatory policies of the organization keep me from being able to or wanting to.
When we moved here my wife mentioned to a few people that I was an Eagle Scout. I was contacted by a couple of the movers and shakers in the local Scouts. I volunteered once to help them prepare some land that was donated to them. Then I had a conversation with a couple locals about religion. I have never been contacted again and was given the cold shoulder when I tried to talk to one of the leaders about why I am no longer contacted.
Can you feel the love?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 13 of 31 (615710)
05-15-2011 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Theodoric
05-15-2011 9:17 PM


Re: Eagle Scout here
According to some (including Penn and Teller), it's the result of the Mormon Church's take-over of BSA in the 1980's. Scouting is the Mormon's youth program of choice. Every single Mormon boy is registered with BSA. And Mormon adults are ordered to be leaders -- a coworker who married into that church and only had daughters was one day complaining bitterly at work that he had been ordered to be a Cubmaster. And they are all registed in BSA until the age of 18. Even though they are all pushed through to get their Eagle at age 14, whereupon they go into the church's sports programs from that point onwards. And at the council campouts (eg, camporees), there was always grumbling among the non-Mormon veteran Scouters about how the Mormon troops never ever stayed, but rather always pulled out late Saturday in order to make it to church Sunday morning.
In the court cases, one agrument BSA presented repeatedly was that the Mormon Church vowed to remove all their support should any of the Three G's (Godless, Gay, Girl) ever be allowed to join. BSA was at the same time proclaiming themselves proud to discriminate and that they were being forced to discriminate by the Mormon Church. The same as they would proclaim themselves either a religious organization and not now nor ever-ever a religious organization, all depending on what argument they were trying to use in court. Lawyers may well take a different view of this, but to the rest of us it reeks of hypocrisy.
During the Randall "burning times", our local council, the one actually actively engaged in that particular act of discrimination and in the subsequent legal proceedings (which BSA had invited; to the twins' father, "So sue us."), put out a full-page ad in the county's major newspaper. It vainly proclaimed, "Our Principles are Not for Sale". To which I replied, "Of course not. You already sold them out to the Mormon Church!"
Now here's a bit of irony. When I became an atheist those 46-47 years ago, I sat down and thought about my moral compass. Since my reason for becoming an atheist was that I could no longer be a Christian because I couldn't believe the Bible, then the Bible could not serve as a basis for morality. Instead, I chose the Scout Oath and Scout Law. And indeed, during those "burning times" (forgive me if I appear to make light of what our Wiccan brethren had to endure; I speak here as a Unitarian-Universalist), BSA's official magazine to Scouters included a quote from Lord Baden-Powell saying what a great gift the Scout Law (referring to the original British Scout Law, not the expanded religion-ized American version) was, because instead of telling us what not to do (as in "Thou shalt not ..." of the Ten Commandments and of organized religion), it told us what we need to do in order to have a good life.
As it has always been. As it shall always be. In spite of the BSA professional pinheads.
So say we all!

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 14 of 31 (615723)
05-16-2011 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Briterican
05-15-2011 1:18 PM


I feel a weird mix of anger, resentment and victimisation as a result ...
In my very similar situation I found I was torn, embarrassed and thankful.
I was torn by my dad who was a scientist as am I, acknowledged that the prospect of any god existing was far too improbable and yet found such solace in the rituals, prayers and hymns of the Maronite church.
I was embarrassed by my mother's inability to comprehend the illogic, violence and inhumanity that is the legacy of her beloved Catholic church.
And finally I was thankful that my acculturation and personality spared me being entrapped by blind obedience to stupidity. Though, I admit, aspects of this last part have gotten me into some difficulties in certain situations, like the army and corporate america.
Anyway, my point is you have nothing to resent or be angry about or feel victimized by. You're the one with his head on straight. It's the others who are all screwed up. And since you love them all you can do is sigh and let it be.

This message is a reply to:
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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 15 of 31 (615766)
05-16-2011 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by dwise1
05-15-2011 9:03 PM


Thanks folks
dwise1 writes:
If there is something that you do not want to be made known, then do not announce it on-line. It sucks, but there you have it.
Valid advice but not relevant to my situation. I absolutely have no problem with anyone and everyone knowing my view on this matter. The scout story is interesting though, so thanks for that.

This message is a reply to:
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