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Author Topic:   Let's face it...
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 17 of 108 (611)
12-11-2001 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by redstang281
12-11-2001 8:18 AM


"Sex was ment to be an emotionally attaching event designed to bond two people together (a man and a woman.) However when people use it just to forfill a lustfull desire it loosing it's meaning until the whole point of a relationship looses it's meaning."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... Wrong way, Love is meant to be an emotional way of attaching people SO they have sex.
"I believe this is why God created STD's - to punish those who abuse his gift of sex."
HAHAHAHAHAHA.....Nope, God created all life in 6 days. This meant Adam (Eve?) had every known sexually transmitted parasite known to man, & God gave it to them!!!! LOL
Why does the faithful husband get STDs off of his flirty wife then? Whats he done now to anger Him? Just can't do anything right, can we!!
"Im sorry but arguing that an unborn child has already sinned and deserves to be born with aids isnt terribly convincing as evidence of an omnibenevolent big fella...."
"The world is no longer perfect. That is because of man, not because of God."
Whaaaaaaaaaat!!! But didn't God create the world & MAN??? If God didn't want to have to create the (very well designed) AIDS virus by way of punishing the innocent, then maybe he should have put more thought into us. He didn't HAVE to make some people (turn to) evil. But you God Bods can't have it both ways. He created us imperfectly or he didn't.
I'll probably be the only person that thanks you for "that STD gift"
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by redstang281, posted 12-11-2001 8:18 AM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by redstang281, posted 12-11-2001 10:27 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 19 of 108 (615)
12-12-2001 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by redstang281
12-11-2001 10:27 PM


But unborn children never fell. They are blameless. God gave STDs to people who DIDN'T abuse his gifts.
Didn't Jesus die for our sins? Seems he may as well put his feet up & enjoyed a day with a sixpack (for OUR sins, of course), for all the good it did. What was the point? If God is STILL insistent on punishing innocents. We may as well ALL give up & go home if we've been pre-judged in this malicious way.
"If you consider the fact that two people who withdraw from sexual attivity until marriage and then are faithful to one another it becomes apparent that my theory is true."
What ARE you talking about? Nothing would change on planet Earth if they shagged themselves stupid years before they got married (if they bothered at all).
Whether Adam sinned or not is irrelevent. I AM NOT A SINNER. How many Christians would accept life imprisonment on this basis? For being guilty of someone elses crime. NOT YOU, THATS FOR SURE!!
Utter rubbish. Please don't insult me saying I don't understand. Whats to misinterpret?
I'm guilty of someone elses crime, Jesus died for my sin (actually someone elses), & I'm STILL TO BLAME!!!
Sheesh....God sure is hard to please....
So whats the point in Final Judgement if were ALL guilty anyway. Seems to me I may as well go & murder someone, because I'm already being blamed (I wonder if someone else gets the blame for that murder, maybe thats how it works).
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-12-2001]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by redstang281, posted 12-11-2001 10:27 PM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 3:36 AM mark24 has not replied
 Message 22 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 8:08 AM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 20 of 108 (616)
12-12-2001 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by mark24
12-12-2001 3:32 AM


Didn't God create heaven & earth & LUCIFER???? To say he didn't implies that not everything is Gods work. Tut, tut. So why create something thats going to backstab you? God either deliberately created Lucifer to backstab him, or is such a bad designer he forgot to edit "evil" out. Same goes for Man.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 3:32 AM mark24 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 7:57 AM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 28 of 108 (645)
12-12-2001 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by redstang281
12-12-2001 8:08 AM


"Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation."
Actually, all the biblical account shows is that Adam can't take instructions. I wouldn't have eaten the apple & would therefore be innocent where Adam is not. It is obviously wrong to blame people for other peoples crimes. If I punched you in the face you wouldn't call the police & finger someone else, or would you?
I put it to you again, if Gods fairness in blaming ALL of us for Adams naughtyness is righteous. Then would you consent to a term of incarceration for someone elses crime? Say 15 years, followed by the chair? Knowing full well that the judge & jury knew you never committed the crime at all. No, thought not.
Also, why are some babies punished for Adams crimes with congenital illnesses that amount to a death sentence, yet others are allowed to live to a 100+ years?
"Jesus died for our sins so that we can enter heaven, not so that the world could become perfect again. "
But why did he have to be nailed to a plank? Couldn't Jesus thrown a wild party for everyone, or Got a Video & KFC, or picked his nose so we can enter Heaven. God makes the rules he could have done it any way, surely? Hang on! Why am I surprised? This bloke causes babies to be born with HIV because someone 6,000 years ago ate an apple, why would he be compassionate to his own son?
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 8:08 AM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:10 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 33 of 108 (658)
12-12-2001 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by redstang281
12-12-2001 12:10 PM


"Adam eating the apple was an example to God. It showed him the nature of man. We all came from Adam and are made of the same makeup as he. Maybe you wouldn't eat the apple, but you would do something else that is forbid."
1/ God KNOWS the nature of man, he created him. Some people would have eaten it, some wouldn't. Some people WOULD have followed ALL the rules. Incidentally, what are these rules that no-one can follow. You seem very sure I would be fallible.
2/ For the third time.......
"I put it to you again, if Gods fairness in blaming ALL of us for Adams naughtyness is righteous. Then would you consent to a term of incarceration for someone elses crime? Say 15 years, followed by the chair? Knowing full well that the judge & jury knew you never committed the crime at all."
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:10 PM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:59 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 39 of 108 (670)
12-12-2001 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by redstang281
12-12-2001 12:59 PM


"If they were putting me on trial for a specific action that I didn't commit, then no it's not fair. But if they are putting me on trail for me being human and making mistakes than I would have to say I'm guilty."
In which case, the death penalty for "being human" would be unfair?
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:59 PM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 1:34 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 41 of 108 (672)
12-12-2001 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by redstang281
12-12-2001 1:34 PM


"if the death penalty was for being human then yes that would be a fair judge of me(or anyone.) "
Let me clarify, do you think the death penalty is fair punishment for the terrible crime of being human?
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 1:34 PM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 2:10 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 43 of 108 (675)
12-12-2001 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by redstang281
12-12-2001 2:10 PM


It took a long time getting here......
"I believe this is why God created STD's - to punish those who abuse his gift of sex."
"Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation."
So you link human nature with original sin. Being human is inherently sinful because Adam disobeyed God.
You then go on to say that the death penalty for being human isn't fair.
"The judgment is fair. The punishment isn't fair.
&
For disobeying God I believe the punishment we receive is fair."
So, finally, back to points made on the first page. Unborn children with congenital illnesses that can only be death sentences you say are for original sin (being human), & as a punishment imposed by God is fair dincum. But you contradict yourself in saying its not fair?
So you think Gods not fair, but actually you do........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 2:10 PM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 3:01 PM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 50 of 108 (698)
12-13-2001 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by redstang281
12-12-2001 3:51 PM


"I'm not saying a model for society should be judged on it's basis of combating std's, I'm saying that if we listened to the bible we wouldn't have to fight std's as much. But I will go as far as to claim that this is one example of how if society was based on God's law that it would be perfect."
Mark24s law says wear a condom & shag as much as you like, do what you like as long as you don't hurt anyone/thing. & I don't blame you for someone elses sins, you are judged by your own actions. I'm not even insecure enough to require you all to kneel & worship me!
Do I have the beginnings of a new religion here or what?
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 3:51 PM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by mark24, posted 12-13-2001 6:03 AM mark24 has not replied
 Message 54 by redstang281, posted 12-13-2001 8:25 AM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 51 of 108 (701)
12-13-2001 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by mark24
12-13-2001 5:31 AM


How do I quote please?
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by mark24, posted 12-13-2001 5:31 AM mark24 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Percy, posted 12-13-2001 11:26 AM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 52 of 108 (702)
12-13-2001 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by redstang281
12-12-2001 3:18 PM


"For a man to deny me life because I am just like him, that is not fair. For God to deny me life because I am not like him, that is fair. Because of course we are not like God.
But in order to judge someone of something you must yourself lack that which you judge them on.
So therefor if God gives us the death penalty for what we are, then yes that is fair. But how man A say man B is guilty of death simply for being a man, when man A is a man as well?
You see the judgement of man would be hypocritical, but the judgement of God would not. "
Whaaaaaaat? Because ;
1/ You imply all men are alike & can't judge each other, it would seem courts of law are unfair by merely judging others. You want to live in a world with no courts?
Its OK then for me to kill the man next door because hes dark skinned & a Hindu, & not like me?
2/ Who said a man is denying you life BECAUSE you are like him? A man would deny you life because you (not actually) are a murderer, & he isn't. Therefore the judge lacks the accused "murderer" status. Just because they are human doesn't mean they are alike. That would be reserved for identical twins. As soon as you exercise free will, you have "differed" from others, by definition. This is what the rest of the world describes as an "individual".
Nevertheless, he's human & you would seem to argue that mans fallibilty & ability to murder is human. Therefore he IS sentenced to death because he's human. Yet the judge, who hasn't murdered, is not guilty of murder & can't be judged of that crime, DESPITE being human.
You seem to be attributing all the crimes man will ever commit, to all men. Just because I can murder someone doesn't mean I will. It means I've exercised the free will God gave me to not murder someone. Someone that did murder, can be judged accordingly by the appropriate authorities. It is NOT FAIR FOR BABIES THAT HAVE COMMITED NO CRIME BY DINT OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL TO HAVE THEIR LIVES SNUFFED OUT.
Consider a child that is born "perfect" compared to one that is suffering terribly & has hours to live? Both guilty of being human, yet God makes one suffer & one not. ANY way you put it, this is a dictionary definition of unfairness.
Ergo, God is unfair.
Whats the point of free will if you're going to be judged GUILTY anyhow.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 3:18 PM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by redstang281, posted 12-13-2001 9:16 AM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 66 of 108 (799)
12-16-2001 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by redstang281
12-12-2001 3:18 PM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
I ask athiest and evolutionist to think in terms of creation for one momment please. If everyone from Adam until present day obeyed the law in the bible of waiting until marriage to have sex, don't you think std's would barely be anything of a problem?
I believe this is why God created STD's - to punish those who abuse his gift of sex.

But 2 people that are married, & have only had sex with each other can still pass on STDs to each other. Not all STDs are caught JUST during sex. Hepatitis C, HIV/AIDS, for example.
So, having done everything right, & by Gods rules. The couple still die because the man tried to help an AIDS infected crash victim. Contracted AIDS & gave it to his wife.
These two people were killed by an STD, that you say was SPECIFICALLY created to kill people who have abused his gift of sex. This couple actually fulfilled all Gods requirements for having sex & were killed by an STD anyway.
How so?
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 3:18 PM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by redstang281, posted 12-16-2001 2:42 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 68 of 108 (804)
12-16-2001 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by redstang281
12-16-2001 2:42 PM


Well, OK, its just not what you said, thats all.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by redstang281, posted 12-16-2001 2:42 PM redstang281 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 85 of 108 (1123)
12-22-2001 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by joz
12-19-2001 1:16 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
To use a concept from quantum mechanics the very act of God observing the future collapses the wave function and predetermines the outcome will be that which was observed... Hence no free will as our actions are predetermined....
[This message has been edited by joz, 12-19-2001]

And that, as they say, was that.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by joz, posted 12-19-2001 1:16 PM joz has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 91 of 108 (2374)
01-18-2002 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Cobra_snake
01-17-2002 11:00 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Cobra_snake:
3. Shrafinator brought up the point that because God allows evil to occur, he is evil in nature. This is simply not true. The cause of all evil is NOT God. Just because God created the capacity for evil does not mean he is at fault for the evil that is done.
God is not unfair. The world is unfair.
[This message has been edited by Cobra_snake, 01-17-2002]

Cobra, if I made my gutter with the potential to leak, it would be my fault when it did leak.
Similarly, God can hardly complain when he creates beings that have the potential to do evil, when they do evil.
That man has free will is irrelevent. God SHOULD have given us free will, minus the ability to do evil. That He neglected to do this is his dripping gutter, His fault.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Cobra_snake, posted 01-17-2002 11:00 PM Cobra_snake has not replied

  
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