Catholics & Inerrancy

OK I see what you're getting at. There would still be eyewitnesses around when the first letters were written even if the stories weren't being told by those who were witnesses which is most likely the case.The guys that got involved in this dedicated their lives to it which I can't see happening if they weren't convinced of the truth of the resurrection. In addition the faith grew rapidly and sustained that growth which I can't see happening if the resurrection is just a fable.However, I think we're off topic and the stories are there. We can choose to believe or not. I personally find I believe.

It is my contention that scriptural authority is not well understood by just about everybody outside the church and by many inside the church as well. I realize that I am just presenting my view and that I may well be completely wrong as I am sure that there will be no shortage of both Christians and non-Christians only be too happy to point out. In Mathew Jesus says the following:

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And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

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So God the Father has given Jesus the Son authority the question becomes where do we find authority now. Jesus says this in John 20.

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21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

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Jesus also said in John 14:

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26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 27 "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28 "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 "Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. 30 "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me; 31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here

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There is nothing to suggest that The Bible on its own has any authority. All authority is God’s authority and the Bible only has authority as delegated by God.As Paul writes in Timothy 2:

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16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness ; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

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The Bible then is the road map that we follow so that we may exercise God’s authority in our God given vocation as humans to bring truth, love, forgiveness, reconciliation, mercy, justice etc to God’s created world.I realize that in using Biblical quotes to make my point I’m using something of a circular argument, however, if my point is correct that the Bible is our road map then it makes sense. Also, although it looks like I’m quote mining I contend that what I have said can also be read that way in the context of the entire Biblical narrative.So in the end I see it this way. God the Father invested his authority in the Jesus the Son who invested that same authority in us, the creatures created in His image. The Bible then is a road map, telling the story of God breaking into the world through His people.Here is one example of how I see it working. You have just picked up your new born infant for the first time and you are filled with the joy and wonder along with the love and sense of responsibility. Yes there are many that doesn’t work for, but they know at some level that they are failing to be what they are called to be. I believe that calling comes from God and we know deep down that we have authority over that child and that we are called to the model of authority that we see in Jesus in the scriptures. Jesus’ model of authority doesn’t look what we normally think of authority to look like. In God’s kingdom authority means that we are to love, serve and sacrifice. In this case we are called to unconditionally love our children, we are called to unconditionally serve our children and we are called to sacrifice for them. That is how I see God’s authority working and that model of authority comes from the scriptural narratives.Here is the take on it by someone infinitely more qualified on the subject than I am. NT Wright, who is certainly one of the top theologians/historians in the world today has this to say about Biblical authority.The following quote is from a talk given by NT Wright titled How Can the Bible be AuthoritativeThe link will give you the whole lecture.

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Why is authority like this? Why does it have to be like that? Because God (as in Acts 1 and Matthew 28, which we looked at earlier) wants to catch human beings up in the work that he is doing. He doesn’t want to do it by-passing us; he wants us to be involved in his work. And as we are involved, so we ourselves are being remade. He doesn’t give us the Holy Spirit in order to make us infallibleblind and dumb servants who merely sit there and let the stuff flow through us. So, he doesn’t simply give us a rule book so that we could just thumb through and look it up. He doesn’t create a church where you become automatically sinless on entry. Because, as the goal and end of his work is redemption, so the means is redemptive also: judgement and mercy, nature and grace. God does not, then, want to put people into little boxes and keep them safe and sound. It is, after all, possible to be so sound that you’re sound asleep. I am not in favor of unsoundness; but soundness means health, and health means growth, and growth means life and vigor and new directions. The little boxes in which you put people and keep them under control are called coffins. We read scripture not in order to avoid life and growth. God forgive us that we have done that in some of our traditions. Nor do we read scripture in order to avoid thought and action, or to be crushed, or squeezed, or confined into a de-humanizing shape, but in order to die and rise again in our minds. Because, again and again, we find that, as we submit to scripture, as we wrestle with the bits that don’t make sense, and as we hand through to a new sense that we haven’t thought of or seen before, God breathes into our nostrils his own breaththe breath of life. And we become living beingsa church recreated in his image, more fully human, thinking, alive beings.

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That, in fact, is (I believe) one of the reasons why God has given us so much story, so much narrative in scripture. Story authority, as Jesus knew only too well, is the authority that really works. Throw a rule book at people’s head, or offer them a list of doctrines, and they can duck or avoid it, or simply disagree and go away. Tell them a story, though, and you invite them to come into a different world; you invite them to share a world-view or better still a ‘God-view’. That, actually, is what the parables are all about. They offer, as all genuine Christian story-telling the does, a world-view which, as someone comes into it and finds how compelling it is, quietly shatters the world-view that they were in already. Stories determine how people see themselves and how they see the world. Stories determine how they experience God, and the world, and themselves, and others. Great revolutionary movements have told stories about the past and present and future. They have invited people to see themselves in that light, and people’s lives have been changed. If that happens at a merely human level, how much more when it is God himself, the creator, breathing through his word.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

It seems to me that you think that the Bible is to be used as a book of laws. I don't see it that way. As I said it is a road map, and just as on any road map there is the correct route, there are also many side roads.The Bible is primarily a meta-narrative that involves many shorter narratives along the way. It isn't really a book at all but a collection of books with numerous authors. The writers in my view were inspired by God to record their history but I don't agree with the concept that God dictated it to them. The books are both culturally and writer conditioned.For example whenever they won a battle they write that God was with them, and whenever they lost a battle God was against them. I suggest that battles were lost and won for very human reasons and that God wasn't happy about them being involved in battles at all.I base this on the teachings of Jesus in the NT, and yet when we carefully go over what Jesus says in the NT we can see that it is based entirely on the Hebrew Scriptures. The early Israelites did just what we so often do today which is to mould God into the image that fits with our aspirations, but Jesus pulled out of the Hebrew Scriptures that which was of God. We are still called to do that with the Bible as we have it today.The so-called prosperity gospel is a good example of that. We also have cases where Christianity and nationalism become much to intertwined which can be extremely dangerous. All of us, me included, try to shape God into our image to one degree or another.However, as the prophet Micah says, what God wants of us is that we love kindness, do justice and walk humbly with our God, or as Jesus says love God and neighbour. If you want to the Bible to be a book telling you what to do that is all you need to know. The Bible though is more than that. It is the story of God involving Himself in the affairs of man as He interacts with us through our hearts and minds so that we freely accept having His love, kindness and justice written in our hearts and minds.I’ve posted this quote by CS Lewis before but I think that it is worth repeating in this context.

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My present view--which is tentative and liable to any amount of correction--would be that just as, on the factual side, a long preparation culminates in God's becoming incarnate as Man, so, on the documentary side, the truth first appears in mythical form and then by a long process of condensing or focusing finally becomes incarnate as History. This involves the belief that Myth in general is not merely misunderstood history ... nor diabolical illusion ... nor priestly lying ... but, at its best, a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination. The Hebrews, like other people, had mythology: but as they were the chosen people so their mythology was the chosen mythology--the mythology chosen by God to be the vehicle of the earliest sacred truth, the first step in that process which ends in the New Testament where truth has become completely historical. Whether we can say with certainty where, in this process of crystallization, any particular Old Testament story falls, is another matter. I take it that the memoirs of David's court come at one end of the scale and are scarcely less historical than St. Mark or Acts; and that the Book of Jonah is at the opposite end.

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(From Lewis’ book Miracles Chap 15.)In the end though, as we are all fallible human beings there is no objective metric. All we come with our biases and subjective views. In reality I can’t see how there could be an objective metric that would allow for free will in general, let alone allowing for the unconditional love. If we know conclusively that we are to be rewarded for humbly loving kindness and justice then we aren’t free to love freely.Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Good post and I agree. When I said that Christianity was a waste of time if the resurrection wasn't an historical event I didn't mean that the message of Christianity was wrong. I agree that I could have worded it better. I'll try and do better. Christianity came into being solely because of the resurrection. As Paul himself said in 1st Corinthians 15

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14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised ; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless ; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

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If the resurrection isn't true then Christianity is false and at best Jesus was a prophet with some funny ideas. There were numerous other Messianic movements during that 250 year or so period from the Maccabees through to the Bar Kokhba movement in 135 AD. All of the other movements failed and pretty much always meant that the leaders were executed. If Jesus was not resurrected then He was just another failed messiah, and so why should we then pay any more attention to him than any of the other failed messiahs? It is the resurrection that is the foundation of Christianity and without it Christianity is simply a Jewish sect with some false concepts.That does not mean of course that God doesn't exist or that He doesn't want us to live a life that humbly loves kindness and does justice. I am just saying that if the resurrection didn't happen then we have to come to our conclusions about what we believe about God, and how we live our lives, from some other source whether it be some other religion or through naturalistic means. I agree with all of that. I would add though that the fact that just because someone believes that the resurrection was an historical event, does not mean that they actually love goodness for its own sake. That is one reason that I have a major problem with those that sell Christianity on the basis that by giving intellectual consent to the Christian faith you get to live forever. If they just read their Bibles with an open mind and heart they could easily see that this is not the message that Jesus brought. Jesus' message is that we give our hearts over to God - a God that loves kindness, humility and justice.Jesus said this in Matthew 9:

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He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13 "But go and learn what this means : 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

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It is God's wish that everyone would turn to the way that He desires and by becoming incarnate in Jesus and through the death and resurrection He reached out to sinners, and for that matter all of mankind, in one great redemptive act.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

I agree completely. I would add though that it is my belief that the love of goodness can only come from God whether we recognize him or not, but of course that is a matter of faith.

I mentioned "law" as you were talking about the Bible as an authoritative book. I assume that when you talk about authority you are talking about the thou shalt nots as opposed to the stories like that of Ruth and Boaz.I'm sure that when I use the term "road map" for the Bible that it isn't a perfect metaphor. It seems to me, as I've said before, that the Bible is primarily a meta-narrative that tells the story of God interacting with his image bearing creatures, from creation to new creation. Like a road map the story has many twists and turns, optional routes, as well as routes that get you lost and other various diversions.The one common theme throughout that keeps you on the direct route is unselfish love and to stretch it a little further we have God as seen in Jesus as the GPS.I think that's the best I can do with that and I've no doubt left myself open to attack and ridicule from all sides. I don't know how to answer such a general question as that. The Bible is as we all know a collection of books with many different authors collected together to create the one great meta-narrative. In general though, I don't see it as opinion but as people inspired to record all the narratives that together form the great narrative that is the Bible. I realize that the Bible isn't all narrative but I think that even the poetry, drama etc blend in and become part of the whole story.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

I think though that the problem is that you are insisting on reading the Bible from the same perspective that a Christian who is a biblical literalist does. It isn't that the message is corrupted but it is written in an ancient style. Included in that are grand metaphors like the creation story, inspired mythologies like Noah and Jonah, the laws as written in Leviticus, Numbers etc as the writers struggle to work out how to serve their God, the inspired revelations in Daniel, Isaiah, Micah and others in the OT. As we come to the more modern times of 2000 years ago the truth of what is written becomes historically, but not necessarily perfectly accurate. Through all this though we are dealing with a variety of authors whose writing, like everyone else's writing, is personally and culturally conditioned.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Love your neighbour, love your enemy, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, humbly love kindness and do justice are all from the Bible and in one way or another they all say the same thing.I agree that it's simple and basic, but how well are any of us, or for that matter how is the world doing? It may be simple in theory, but in practice - not so much.Sure there are inconsistencies even in the NT, but it is like 5 people describing a car accident. Their stories may differ slightly but they are all in agreement that there was an accident. The Gospel writers may remember things in a slightly different order etc but they all agree that Jesus was crucified, buried and then appeared again with a new kind of physicality.Once again the Bible in total is the story of the people that God chose to bring his message to the world. It tells of when they got it right, and when they got it wrong. I'd point out that the God who desires that we love our neighbour, and even love our enemies, is very different than the gods we find amongst the pagan neighbours of the early Jews. I'd say that the world is still a very long way from perfect but it is a better world now, than the world we see depicted by any of the historians, including those who wrote the OT. God is making progress with us even if it's a long, difficult and irregular process.Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

But you keep insisting that the Bible be read in the same way that a Christian who insists that the Bible be read like a science text does. It isn't that kind of collection of books. It's a narrative of God working in the world. God wants us to freely choose unselfish love. If God were to supernaturally make everything crystal clear we would no longer be able to choose unselfish love.You also seem to be able to identify evil. How do you know what evil is? How do you know it even exists? If evil exists the so must goodness. I think both of us know the difference between good and evil. I'm suggesting that the Bible tells the story of God, by working through His created beings, to bring goodness to the world and eradicate evil.Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

As I pointed out earlier, we are dealing with different authors several years after the event. Frankly if they all described the events with the same exact detail I would give them less credibility - not more. In my view they are clearly writing events in the way that they remember them or else in the way it was told to them.They are all clear though on the centrality and certainty of the resurrection to the entire narrative.I've written on other threads that I believe that mankind is evolving in a spiritual sense in that we are gradually, over time but inconsistently, becoming more like the creatures that God intends us to be. The Bible chronicles the story of God interacting with His creation to move that evolution along. The Bible tells that story up to the end of the NT era. I realize that I'm becoming repetitious but I again suggest that you are insisting the Bible be read in the same way a Biblical literalist does. It isn't that kind of book.At its most basic the Bible tells us two things.First it tells us what God wants of us which is to love humbly and unselfishly. Secondly the Bible tells us that it is God's plan to redeem this world when time comes to an end, (not tomorrow by the way ),so that what we do now to care for God's creation including the planet and all life on it matters eternally.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Sure. I wouldn't dispute that. Amongst Christians there is disagreement on that matter. There is no proof of any of it. I know that the Bible is true, not like I know that 2 plus 2 make 4, but like I know that my wife loves me.The Bible makes sense to me. It makes sense of my world and my life. In addition in my Christian walk I have experiences that appear to me to be outside of what I would expect.Frankly the uncertainty in and of itself makes sense as I pointed out earlier. If there was certainty then unselfish love becomes essentially impossible. We are to love unselfishly for its own sake not for reward. Again, I think that you are making the mistake that some fundalmentalists do. Those that are blessed with miracles, messengers and a Christian environment are blessed with the vocation of spreading God's truth, forgiveness, mercy and restorative love to the world. I realize that when you look at the church you would very often suggest that I would have to be kidding.Two points on that. Firstly what makes the news is the church screwing up while the many good things that are done go unnoticed. Secondly Jesus said in Matthew 9:

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9 As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector's booth ; and He said to him, "Follow Me!" And he got up and followed Him. 10 Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners ?" 12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13 "But go and learn what this means : 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

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In other words we should expect the church to be made up of people like myself - imperfect sinners. We aren't perfect and maybe even, heaven forbid, more flawed than most.New creation, whenever it happens, is for those that ultimately choose unselfish love over selfish love regardless of their theology. Grace is offered to all who choose it.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

But we take all sorts of things on faith. It can be as simple as having faith that the chair I am sitting on is going to continue to support me. I spent a career in aviation and every time I took off I had faith that the technology and the maintenance of that aircraft would allow me to get from A to B. I have faith that I have been created with purpose and by a loving creator. I have faith that I am called to reflect that love into creation.It is easy to put it down as to what is most satisfying, but frankly there have been times in my life when to repudiate my Christian faith would have been easier and possibly even more satisfying. Like I have said many times - being a Christian isn't necessarily going to make me a better kinder person than my atheistic next door neighbour, but it should make me a better kinder person than I had been previously.The church, including myself, is charged with reflecting God's love, mercy, forgiveness, justice etc into the world. That isn't to suggest that it does it well but sometimes it does. Sometimes it does just the opposite. We all have our failings regardless of our beliefs.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

I didn't say that was a reason to believe it. I only said that it makes it relevant. Maybe she stays for some reason other than love. You choose to believe she stays because she loves you. Actually I knew that. I wrote world when I should have written universe. I agree with both of your statements. I have no disagreement with any of that either except to say that in the end believing in evolution, even though all the evidence we have points in that direction, is still not the same as believing that 2 + 2 = 4. I would call myself a theistic evolutionist but that would be giving me far too much credit. I accept evolutionary theory based on the arguments and opinions of people that actually have studied biology and actually know what they are talking about. None of our beliefs about god(s) or lack of god(s) are testable but we all come to some conclusion. In the example that you are referring to, I did look at the case that was being made for the resurrection and believed it to be true. In the scientific sense it couldn't be proven, but as I just said, it can't be disproven either. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. I believe it's me that is right and you believe it's you, and we carry on from there. The Bible is an ancient text. Somebody, or for that matter, several somebodies wrote it. They say that the resurrection happened. That is evidence. They may be mistaken, they may be lying or they may be writing about what really happened. So we do have evidence which we can choose to accept or reject as you have done.I agree that in nature once something is dead it stays dead other than if life is resuscitated. The Christian belief is that the resurrection was a once only occurrence that was outside the bounds of what we consider to be natural. But I do find the case for my faith convincing. I don't think for one minute that I will convince you but that's ok by me. I guess I'm not convinced that the only thing that can be considered as evidence is that which is testable. That's not a strawman. The material world does exist and we know a great deal about how it exists, but there remains the big philosophical question, which is why does it exist at all. Why is there something instead of nothing? You may not claim that no god(s) exist but it seems to me that you are claiming that if they do that we can't know anything about them. I believe that we can. If you want to consider my position irrational that is fine by me.I agree that I am unable to come up with any irrefutable proof or argument that will change your mind. That proof or argument doesn't exist but neither does it exist for what you believe.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

I agree with you completely and I agree that trust is a better word for what we are talking about. As far as my beliefs are concerned, my trust is in my Christian God as revealed to us in Jesus Christ. I trust that what he wants of me is that I humbly love kindness and justice. I trust that these are His own qualities and I trust that in the end there is an ultimate restorative justice for all of creation. This is where we run into difficulty. You aren't going to accept what I see as evidence as being any kind of evidence at all. I see a beautiful universe as being evidence, I see the rationality of our natural world as evidence, I see the Bible as evidence, I see the fact that mankind is capable of unselfish love as evidence, and I even see the fact that I exist at all as evidence.For me the Christian narrative makes more sense than any other answer to that evidence. But you are right, it is an issue of trust and I probably do use the word faith many times when I should use the word trust. Thanks for that. It does appear to me that in comparison to the general population the church does do commit to more charitable work. Most of the overseas NGO's are run by Christians including many by the fundamentalists whose theology I have a great deal of trouble with.I do know my life changed and has continued to do so since I became a Christian and that is the only case that I am able to attest to. (I've ended two sentences in a row with a preposition. I'm going to have the grammar police down on me as well. )Cheers

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Of course trust can be misplaced and I can't prove that my trust in God isn't. As far as trust in the Christian God is concerned it seems to me that it is pretty basic. Back to my favourite verse which is Micah 6:8.

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And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God ?

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Sure as a Christian there is a lot more that I believe, but essentially that statement covers all of what God is asking of us.
I contend that there is evidence that leads us to the conclusion that the verse I just quoted is something worthwhile on which to base our lives, whether we be Christian, Muslim, Atheist or anything else. I agree that I'm not special nor particularly bright. I don't believe that I have been specifically chosen, and I agree that it has to do with being exposed to Christians both in my personal life and in the literature I've read that espouse what is in my view thoughtful Christianity. I think if I was of the belief that to be a Christian I had to accept the OT as some of our fundamentalist friends read it I would have to reject it.I think too that what is implicit in your post is the idea that my theological views make me right with God, and the fact that as you don't hold those views you are doomed for eternity. I don't see it that way at all. This is from Matthew 7.

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21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles ?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

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If as a Christian I do really trust in God to be the centre of my life to the point that I do more perfectly live a life based on His truth, love, mercy, forgiveness, justice etc then yes, when time ends, (glad it wasn't yesterday because I was really busy), I will be with Him. That does not mean though that my atheistic neighbour, my Muslim neighbour or my Samaritan neighbour won't be there as well. (There being God's recreated heaven and earth, which means we have to take good care of this earth in the mean time.) THis from Matthew 9.

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13 "But go and learn what this means : 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

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I'm not a Christian because I'm special but because I'm a sinner. I also don't believe that it confers special privilege on me. It only means that I have the job of reflecting God's love and justice to the world with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, scripture and all mankind. (I have learned more about God on this forum from Atheists than I have from Christians.) I don't try to explain other people's experience of God under any name except to say that if it isn't consistent with the message of God's desire that we love unselfishly, then I would have to question it. You can't be too careful on this forum.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.