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Author Topic:   So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work? (SUM. MESSAGES ONLY)
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 146 of 396 (480566)
09-04-2008 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by dwise1
09-04-2008 11:49 AM


Re: We teach whats infront of our eyes. Either way.
Rather, it is clearly ID's intent to sacrifice science on the altar of their pathetic little "God of the Gaps". Since their false "God of the Gaps" must forever live in mortal fear of science, unlike a true "Sovereign over Nature" God.
Creation "science" and its illegitimate stepchild, ID, are not promoted with the idea of furthering science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by dwise1, posted 09-04-2008 11:49 AM dwise1 has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 223 of 396 (582783)
09-23-2010 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by dwise1
09-23-2010 1:30 PM


Re: Bumped for Dawn Bertot ... Yet Again
Of course, I do not expect Dawn to come up with that methodology on her own.
So far the definition of design from the ID folks is, a la Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it."
That doesn't cut it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by dwise1, posted 09-23-2010 1:30 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by hooah212002, posted 09-23-2010 1:49 PM Coyote has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 234 of 396 (616467)
05-22-2011 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by marc9000
05-22-2011 3:43 PM


Re: Bumped for marc9000 again, as he tries to reneg
To expound on that, here’s an example of how ID studies (supernatural based, as you call it) science works. The following is a William Dembski example that he used in a slightly different context, but it works here. Suppose we have a combination lock with a 0 to 39 numbered dial, and is turned in three alternating directions to be opened. 40X40X40, so the chances are 64,000 to one that it can be opened by someone closing their eyes and turning the dial three times. (that can be comparable to Darwin’s understanding of the simplest forms of life) Contrast that with another, more complex combination lock, it is turned in five different directions to be opened, and the dial is numbered 1 to 99. 100 x 100 x 100 x 100 x 100 — someone closing their eyes and turning that dial 5 times has a 1 in 10 billion chance in opening it the first time. (that could be comparable to what we now understand about the simplest forms of life.)
So this is how ID science works, eh?
By misrepresenting how evolution actually works and beating a strawman about the head and shoulders?
To explain your error we'll use dice. The task is to roll 25 dice and get all sixes.
Your example throws 25 at a time, repeating endlessly, until you get 25 sixes. Don't plan on doing anything else for a few centures.
The way evolution actually works is akin to throwing those 25 dice and then rethrowing only those that are not sixes. You'll be done in a few minutes.
So every time you are tempted to use those impossibly large numbers, ask yourself if those numbers actually apply to the case at hand.
(In a slightly different approach a creationist on another website kept telling us the odds against evolution were 1720 against. He never did figure out why we were laughing at him.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by marc9000, posted 05-22-2011 3:43 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by anglagard, posted 05-22-2011 4:21 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 244 by marc9000, posted 05-27-2011 11:12 PM Coyote has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 252 of 396 (617374)
05-28-2011 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by marc9000
05-27-2011 11:12 PM


All at once vs. cumulative
marc9000 writes:
Your example throws 25 at a time, repeating endlessly, until you get 25 sixes. Don't plan on doing anything else for a few centures.
The way evolution actually works is akin to throwing those 25 dice and then rethrowing only those that are not sixes.
"Rethrowing only those that are not sixes"? How was that decision made? Who made it, nature? Nature can't plan for future function. I looked at Dawkins book that dwise1 instructed me to, and am not convinced that cumulative selection is a single event, but a summary of events, a lot of one-step-at-a-time events. It looked more like atheism, than it did testable, repeatable, observable science.
The model a lot of creationists use would have hundreds or thousands of changes occur all at once, hence the huge odds against such an occurrence.
But nature works by lots of little changes, i.e., cumulative changes--and natural selection. If any of those changes are seriously deleterious the individuals who carry them are eliminated from the gene pool. If those changes are favorable, the individuals who carry them are more likely to be around to foster the next generation.
Over time this adds up, and virtually all the descendants will be from those with the favorable changes (the sixes).
So the model I proposed to you, throwing only those dice that are not sixes is more accurate than the creationist model requiring all changes to be made in one shot.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by marc9000, posted 05-27-2011 11:12 PM marc9000 has not replied

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