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Author Topic:   So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work? (SUM. MESSAGES ONLY)
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 396 (437989)
12-02-2007 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Beretta
12-02-2007 11:24 AM


Re: How Does ID Work?
A note:
The topic is "So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work?"
Attacking some other model adds no weight to the ID model.
If you wish ID to be seen as anything more than a joke, you must provide the model and supporting evidence for your position. See How can "Creationism" be supported?.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 396 (439340)
12-08-2007 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Buzsaw
12-07-2007 9:33 PM


Let's see.
OOPS! This means no questions pertaining to higher intelligence than earthbound humans, no questions as to whether archeology supports an intelligence higher than humanity, no questions pertaining to the accuracy of the ancient Biblical record relative to archeology etc, no questions pertaining to evidence of supernatural ID, no questions pertaining to alternative hypotheses relative to ID interpretation of what is observed.
No, it means that when you actually present evidence that there is some higher intelligence that evidence will be examined. But first you need to place that higher intelligence on the lab table to be examined.
It means that archaeological evidence will be examined, but archeology, being the product of man, can never support something other than man. Do you even know what archeology is?
The accuracy of the ancient Biblical record relative to archeology etc is constantly being examined.
When evidence is presented related to the supernatural, then questions pertaining to evidence of supernatural ID will be examined. But first you must place the Designer on the lab table to be examined.
Alternative hypotheses relative to ID interpretation of what is observed will be examined when a model is presented, something no Biblical Christian or ID or Creationist supporter has ever done.
But as it stands, secular science's goal is not really to 'teach the controversy', but rather it is to eliminate ID creationism and to pervert science into their own image, effectively killing science as well.
Well, there is no "controversy" and until Creation Scientists do what they have NEVER done, place a model that explains what is seen on the floor to be examined, there can be no controversy.
Biblical Creationism AKA ID is simply a joke, a farce, a fraud and nothing but another way to get gullible people to part with their money to make the snake oil salesmen rich.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 396 (439415)
12-08-2007 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
12-08-2007 5:56 PM


Where the ideas must be presented.
IDers are effectively eliminated. They cannot now even ask the questions, let alone discuss models in most schools.
Sorry Buz but that is simply another false statement. The place they must BEGIN is in the peer reviewed science forum at the post-graduate level. Like anyone else, they must place therir models out for review, and do stuff like actually include ALL of the data.
The truth is that Biblical Creationists, ID asserters and Creation Scientists simply have no models for anything except getting ignorant gullible Christians to send money.
That model they have perfected though.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 396 (439423)
12-08-2007 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Buzsaw
12-08-2007 6:38 PM


How do you present the evidence
Evidence of the supernatural relative to science must of necessity be above the example you've given. It must involve the sciences of archeology, exploration, physical observation and historical research etc.
Please provide the model that explains how archeology can support the existence of the supernatural?
It may as well include mathmatical probabilities, statistics, geneology, verifiable prophecy fulfillment and such.
Do you ever plan to present evidence of fulfilled prophecy or are you just gonna make the claim and run away again?
What is the model for geneological evidence of the supernatural? Maybe put Gods Granddad on the stand?
My understanding is that none of this is being allowed in the public educational arena.
Thank GOD!
The topic in case you missed it is "So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work?"
What is your model for placing the supernatural on the lab bench to be tested?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 104 of 396 (439457)
12-08-2007 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Buzsaw
12-08-2007 8:50 PM


Re: How do you present the evidence
A good starter would be for National Geographic's marine scientist/archeologist/explorer, Dr. Robert Ballard to at least go to the Gulf of Aqaba and explore the site marine biologist, Dr. Lennart Moller has researched, witten about and produced videos of the underwater photographed corral encased debris which resembles chariot parts, in a region described in the Biblical record including corroborating evidence relative to the Exodus account and Red Sea crossing. Why aren't the educational institutions calling for Mollar presentations of his marine research and professional underwater photography, etc?
To my knowledge no secularist scientists have even shown any interest in this phenominal discovery. Why? Likely because it has supernatural implications which secular science purposfully avoids.
So again, perhaps mainline secularist science's aversion to asking questions is indeed missing out on valuable and new discoveries as per your statement.
And again, as it stands, secular science's goal is not really to 'teach the controversy', but rather it is to eliminate ID creationism and to pervert science into their own image, effectively killing science as well (applying some of your own phraseology).
Dr. Lennart Moller never produced ANY evidence. All he did was produce an infomercial that ignorant gullible Christians will buy. He did no research, presented no case, just sold his commercial. He did NO science, shows no understanding of science, has NO evidence, presented nothing to the peer review process because he knows nothing he has done will stand up to examination by anything except ignorant gullible Christians.
So far Creation Scientists, Biblical Creationists and ID asserters have NEVER presented any models in support of their positions. Except of course the model of how to get ignorant gullible Christians to send them money.
So when are YOU going to actually step up and present a model or support ANY of your assertions.
AbE:
Lennart Mller really is a scientist, and so he KNOWS what is required for scientific research. The only possible explanation for him NOT following normal scientific methodology is that he knows he has nothing that would stand up to examination in the peer review system and also that Biblical Christians are taught NOT to critically examine assertions that seem to support their desired conclusion but will willing fork over good dollars.
Edited by jar, : add info on Lennart Mller

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 396 (439500)
12-08-2007 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Buzsaw
12-08-2007 10:24 PM


Re: How do you present the evidence
Why did Dr. Lennart Mller who is a scientist and knows how science is done not follow ANY scientific method and instead simply make an infomercial to sell to ignorant gullible Christians?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 230 of 396 (616064)
05-19-2011 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by marc9000
05-18-2011 10:35 PM


once again
What is the method and model that explains how a designer influences an directs evolution?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 256 of 396 (617570)
05-29-2011 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by marc9000
05-29-2011 7:27 PM


marc9000 writes:
Methods are all that should matter. Answers are always subject to rejection. After all, current science is loaded with atheistic answers, and the majority of the U.S. population still rejects them.
Sorry but that is simply so wrong on so many points. points that have been explained to you over and over again.
Science does not have any atheistic answers.
It is totally irrelevant whether or not the majority of the US population rejects them, *** and opinions have nothing to do with truth or reality.
And once again, please provide the method used by either a Creator or Designer to interfere or influence biological evolution.
Please provide the method used to test for the existence of that Creator or Designer.
Yup, methods should be what count and so far, they seem to be missing when it comes to Creationism and Intelligent Design.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 262 of 396 (617853)
05-31-2011 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by tesla
05-31-2011 2:21 PM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:
If you provide some examples of what you consider supernatural events, or at least a clear idea of the kinds of events these are, then we can discuss how they might be studied scientifically.
The sun was once considered supernatural and was exposed. Message 453 of 'inductive atheism' in the faith and belief forums is a discussion of 'supernatural' and its sources. Message 453 includes this link: http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html
Currently understood 'supernatural' events are already explored by science, yet little discovery has been made due to limitations in science.
I assume there are great minds on both sides of the debate. What prevents the greatest minds of ID from blazing the trail of investigation of supernatural events?
The ‘limits’ of science.
What we're seeking in this thread is how one does supernatural ID science. For a science that a few short years ago was actively seeking inclusion in public school science classrooms it should be a simple matter to describe how they did the research.
The same way all science is researched. a thesis becomes a theory, a theory becomes research, and the limits of science dictate discovery. as science continues to grow in knowledge the truth of supernatural events and behaviors can be discovered.
However, with no exploration, nothing can be discovered.
What limits of science?
There was ample evidence the Sun really existed.
What supernatural thing would you like science to investigate where you can present evidence of its existence comparable to the evidence that the sun exists?
Edited by jar, : Got my reply in the wrong place

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 266 of 396 (617949)
05-31-2011 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by tesla
05-31-2011 2:41 PM


Re: open minded debate
Sorry but that is sim-ply false.
You mentioned that the sun was once considered supernatural but when investigate found to be entirely natural.
I can list many such instances, lightning, storms, night, day, fire, flood, the sea...
The one common point to each of those though was that there was very convincing evidence that each of those existed.
What supernatural thing would you like science to investigate where you can present evidence of its existence comparable to the evidence that the sun, lightning, storms, night, day, fire, flood, the sea exists?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 267 of 396 (617952)
05-31-2011 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by tesla
05-31-2011 4:58 PM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:
Here is a thought experiment: a creature appears in your room, and eggs float through your refrigerator door, grabs your couch and eats it and then disappears; what do you call that? Supernatural..
Nonsense.
It is called "Unknown".
Edited by jar, : - 0

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 270 of 396 (617967)
05-31-2011 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by tesla
05-31-2011 6:01 PM


Re: open minded debate
I read it. Nothing supernatural there.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 323 of 396 (618300)
06-02-2011 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by tesla
06-02-2011 4:06 PM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:
You’re looking at a very small picture. The majority of mankind believes that God is a real thing. Only a few positional-agitated scientists would gawk at scientists studying consciousness at the level of physics and chemistry necessary to understand the behavior--with the premise that it is potential to discover superior consciousness as it is believed to exist--when billions are being dumped into the research.
First, belief that God is real is totally irrelevant; is there EVIDENCE that God exists?
If there is no evidence that God exists then there is nothing to investigate.
Second, studying consciousness has NOTHING to do with supernatural.
Third, unless there is some evidence that something called "superior consciousness" there is nothing to investigate.
Do you have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural exist?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 325 of 396 (618305)
06-02-2011 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by tesla
06-02-2011 4:31 PM


Re: open minded debate
And it just plain don't matter what they believe.
Before you can investigate something there must be some evidence that it exists.
Do you have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural exist?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 328 of 396 (618309)
06-02-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by tesla
06-02-2011 4:43 PM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:
And it just plain don't matter what they believe.
Before you can investigate something there must be some evidence that it exists.
Do you have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural exist?
The evidence of that is what will hopefully be discovered. The path to scientific evidence of that: begins with first understanding human consciousness, and the physics of thoughts.
That is something we can study towards that end [of understanding superior consciousness].
Do you have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural exist?
If you do not have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural even exist then there is NOTHING to investigate.
I believe very strongly that grichnixousness exists.
How do you go about investigating grichnixousness?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 326 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 4:43 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
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