animals on the ark

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Originally posted by wj:
Quicksilver, I suspect the reason that you have not had a substantive response from creationists to your questions is that you are being unduly restrictive - SCIENTIFIC evidence. Surely any old story will do, wont it? Independent, verifiable confirmation is so inconvenient. If you don't accept the authority and independence of the bible then you are reducing the Noachian flood to a plagarism of an earlier Babylonian story with a moral message - a parable. Surely you wouldn't expect to find a parable in the bible.

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So, loosen up. Give the creationists some wriggle room.

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Actually,the Noachian flood story is plagia but not from a babylonian story...the babs themselves took that story from the sumerian epic of gilgamesh....so that story has been recycled not once but TWICE. In the original version,Gilgamesh is warned by the GODS(plural) that a flood is comming(not as a punishement sent by the gods but as a natural disaster...you know...shit happens)and that he should haul his kingly ass onto a boat and brings with him every critter he can find who wouldn't survive the flood otherwise. In that story,the flood is never refered as a global flood either...which means that the story was probably a result of the mesopotamian flood,for which there is evidence.

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Originally posted by John Paul:
John Paul:
As pointed out in my first post there was plenty of room in the Ark to take the animals out for a walk if necessary.

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The food was started at 2,500 tons and the water at 4,070 tons. On page 19 of the book Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study it breaks it down.

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settled barn-dried hay- 21,800 cubic meters

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lightly-compressed hay pellet- 7,060 cubic meters

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doubly-compressed hay- 5,410 cubic meters

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pellted horse food and pellted cattle food- 3,030 cubic meters

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dried fruits- 2,930 cubic meters.

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fresh meat- 6,633 cubic meters

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dried meat(not compressed)- 3,980 cubic meters

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dried meat (compressed)- 1,923 cubic meters

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dried fish- 12,800 cubic meters

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Are any of your numbers for feeding horses anywhere in literature? The book I mention is fully referenced, that is why I ask. Did you take into consideration that the horses could have been ponies?

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JP,you know as well as i do that they just plucked those numbers right out of thin air. There's no evidence that there even was an ark(Ron Wyatts boat shaped mud print in hungary was debunked by ACTUAL SCIENTISTS almost a decade ago),so lets not waste time in discussing how much food they brought into a non-existant ark. The hebrew story of Noah's ark is an ancient sumerian legend recycled out of the epic of gilgamesh. There has floods in many areas of the world,thats not in question. There is also much evidence of a mesopotamian flood a few thousands of years back,which may well be at the root of the gilgamesh flood legend,which wa sinturn recycled by the babylonians,then by the hebrew and finaly by the christians YECS who today are writing book of feasibility about mythological boats...

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"i thought there was a nuclear winter during the flood. now i do understand that the heat was coming from undergorund (plate tectonics), but how did the poles melt."
--There was a slight nuclear winter and a deafening heat displacement. The melting of the poles would have been the first occuring, of course, by the effects of subduction and friction by this means, along with magmatic upflow in the mid-oceanic ridges. this at the same time warming to oceans and boiling them away in some areas, would have ofcourse melted the ice caps, especially the arctic because if I am not mistaken there is a subduction zone right under the cap. This evaporation of the water would in-turn create an extreamly saturated atmosphere. As I am working on now the model of such an event and along with the effects of meteoric impact dust and volcanic cloud condensation nuclei. At points in the atmosphere and the structure of the H₂O it will reflect light instead of naturally absorb it being a green-house gas. This along with the effects of meteoric dust injection into the high troposphere and stratosphere in the same instance.

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LUD:TC,there simply is no way that such a rapid boiling off of all the earth's ocean as you need for your model to work wouldn't have raised the ambiant temperature of the earth by about 100 degrees celcius,making it unlivable. Your subduction theory would have had to be of such an unprecendented magnetude as to defy the very laws of physics themselves...in other word,the only way it can work is as a miracle.

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"if i recall, you said that a nuclear winter would have ensued during the flood that would have explained the ice ages that supposedly occured 30000 or so years ago."
--Actually its supposedly 10,000-12,000 years ago for the uniformitarian set date for the previous ice age. Though I place it at the time of the flood. See above.

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LUD:there have been several ice ages identidied in the geological records...7 if memory serves...the last one was 12000 years ago.

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Originally posted by Cobra_snake:
This is not fair logic. First, evolutionists put forth evidence that is supposed to show that a global flood within the relatively recent past could not have occured. John Paul and TrueCreation are attempting to show that these evidences are not valid. It is not fair that you can provide evidence against a flood, but JP and TC can't provide reasons to believe that the flood was reasonable. Whether or not they do a good job in convincing you that a flood is reasonable is your decision, however, they have every right to try to show that a global flood was feasible.

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They have every right to show whatever they want...i'm not discussing that. It is possible that the world flooded in large parts in the past but that would more likely have been the result of intensified solar activity raising global temperature and melting the ice caps over time (probably a few decades)...then,the survivors,moving to higher grounds could have told stories of floods left and right,which in turn became the legends we know of today. Of course there is no evidence for what i'm suggesting but neither is there any for what YECs are advancing about a global flood. I know that you can show many geological evidence of floods in many parts of the world and you can point to it and say "see...global flood". But when i ask the question "how can you tell that they all occured at once within a 10 months period BESIDE THE BIBLE",you all fall silent. But as i said,that was not my beef with JP's statement. He was quoting amounts of food brought aboard the ark when we have yet to establish through science that there even was an ark(Ron Wyatts fraudulent mud print has allready been identified as a hoaxe and the guy was reknown for planting evidence on the site). The only people who believe these thing are the people who absolutely WANT them to be true...for people like me,who have no vested interest either way,there has been nothing presented by YECs than can even be qualified as remotely convincing,while evolutionists present TONS of credible evidence to support their claims. But hey...if you can not only prove THEM wrong but also prove your side RIGHT,then i'll believe you over them...but you wont accomplish this by citing invented numbers about mythological boats...

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"LUD:TC,there simply is no way that such a rapid boiling off of all the earth's ocean as you need for your model to work wouldn't have raised the ambiant temperature of the earth by about 100 degrees celcius,making it unlivable."
--My Atmospheric science book would say otherwize... Lets show some knowledge in this feild and you tell me why your assertion is true by support.

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LUD:sorry,that should have read TO 100 degree celcius,the boiling point of water

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"Your subduction theory would have had to be of such an unprecendented magnetude as to defy the very laws of physics themselves...in other word,the only way it can work is as a miracle."
--How so?

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LUD:how so? the sheer amount of water being flash evaporated...thats how so.

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"LUD:there have been several ice ages identidied in the geological records...7 if memory serves...the last one was 12000 years ago."
--Actually I f my memmory serves, they give it as many as 17 ice ages, though from the reference, It gives no reason why, nor does it give any detailed information by the evidence for the dating of the ice age. All it does is say what scientists have concluded, not why they have concluded.

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LUD:there are 7 "confirmed"(as confirmed as these thing can get that is) ice age in the geological records and about 12 theorised ones with little or no confirmation....those last ones are derived from an analysis of the time periods between ice ages and from the estimated age of the earth. I saw a show on that very subject on discovery channel a few weeks back

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:

"LUD:there are 7 "confirmed"(as confirmed as these thing can get that is) ice age in the geological records and about 12 theorised ones with little or no confirmation....those last ones are derived from an analysis of the time periods between ice ages and from the estimated age of the earth. I saw a show on that very subject on discovery channel a few weeks back"
--You wouldn't happen to have a detailed site or reference with information on the ice age(s), this much would be helpfull.

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LUD:http://encarta.msn.com/index/conciseindex/48/04874000.htm
This is the best one i found...there are quite a few actually....input ice ages on a search engin and you're in business. This one is even clearer then the discovery channel show i had seen the other day...seems that there has been 4 major period of glaciacion,each divided into 3-5 smaller cooling/warming periods.

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"Why would they become lethargic, exactly?"
--Because of the fact that they would be in such a boat, not that they would be 'squashed' but wouldn't have the kind of space to be running around all of the time though they would get their breaks per se. It would be rather dark all the time because of meteoric dust and volcanic plumes, the sound of rain on the Ark and the ocean would calm them and become lethargic, basically what most dogs do when you have a storm.

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LUDogs dont become letargic for 40 days at a time,let alone 10 months...furthermore,animals not used to sea travel,which includes just about every animal on earth,would become extremely agitated over even short periods of being confined like this. furthermore,i simply dont buy the notion that they would have been young animals....cubs do not travel well for great distances so unless they all lived in the vicinity of Noah's house,this creates an impossible problem too.

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"In particular, I am thinking of animals that usually expend a great deal of energy covering large ranges. Even today, you find a lot of obsessive-compulsive repetitious movements in animals that are confined in zoos."
--Yes, they obviously would not have survived if they had to stay in their cages for the whole year long time, they could have been taken out in large pares and walk around the boat and all that. Make no mistake, Noah would have had is hands full though it wouldn't have been a major problem. Also, for more depth, what is it that makes it so that animals must expend energy, is there a bildup of acids in muscles, do they eat away at themselves on the molecular level or something of that nature?

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LUD:assuming that Noah did have the room to spare to allow the animals to exercise this would have created a logistical problem as well....how do you allow dangerous animals to get loose to run around without them mauling you?

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"I know from personal experience that keeping a horse in a stall for more than a few days results in a very agitated, fractious horse."
--See above, they would have had their times of walking around or even running if they were in an open enough space, they would have become lethargic though and less activity and care would be needed than normal.

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LUD:thats not consistant with what we know of animals today...aside from bears,who can go one for long periods of inactivity at a time,most animals require constant exercise and dont possess the ability to slow their metabolism down enough that long periods of being confined in small areas dont become extremely detrimental to their health.

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"Why is the comparison not valid? Large group of animals in confinement + people to care for them = similar problem. If anything, an Ark is a much tougher problem because an Ark is not an ideal way to house animals, particularly prey and predator species together."
--Assuming there was a predator/prey factor, could they not have been herbivor(ish).

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LUD:yes they could have all been herbivorish...they could all have had pink skin with purple dots...they could all have had the ability to speak and play poker with Noah and the gang. We can say just about anything about FICTIONAL animals in FICTIONAL stories...but for those SERIOUS people who deal with HARD FACTS,we have to ask questions like "is there ANY evidence that all animals were vegetarians 4500 years ago?" if not,then we cant just INVENT traits to make them fit the needs of our FICTIONAL stories...thats not very scientific...

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