The General
Inactive Member
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Message 1 of 15 (48122)
07-31-2003 3:19 AM
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Does Sin Prove A Creator Does Not Exist
A. Introduction
You may wonder how sin fits itself into the creationist/evolutionist debate. While sin does not explain how the earth came into existence or how mankind began some may toss it aside thinking that sin does not address the fundamental issues of the debate. I believe they are mistaken.
Sin answers many questions that we may have about the Creator. Many refuse to believe in God because of the evil that they see around them. They say sometimes, "Since evil exists a loving God cannot," or others like this. It is of absolute importance to understand sin and the issues that surround it in order to come to the decision as to whether the Creator, that many believe exists, is worth putting your faith into.
B.A Flaw in Our Beliefs
Christians, (and I believe that I can also say Jews and Muslims) have five beliefs in common that they view as being very important. The first is likely to be the most obvious to them. One: God exists. Two: God is all Good. Three: God is all-powerful. Four: God is all wise and five: evil exists. Now most people can easily acknowledge that both God and evil can exist, and so I would like to focus more closely on the middle three points. Because if each of these middle three points is right then it would seem impossible that evil could exist. But evil does exist...everyone knows it too. So we have a problem. Because of this problem do we now assume that God does not exist or do we conclude that one of our previously held beliefs are either completely mistaken or that we are understanding one in the wrong way. I will now examine each of these middle three beliefs.
1.God is all-powerful
To believe that God is all-powerful is to believe that God can do anything that is meaningful, anything that is possible and anything that makes sense at all. But hold on. There are some things that God just CANNOT do. For example, God cannot make himself cease to exist. Does that mean that God is not all-powerful? God cant make mistakes either. Does that mean that he is not all-powerful? The answer to both questions is no. If God could make mistakes then he again would not be all-powerful, so the fact that he cannot do certain things makes him most definitely most powerful.
Many claim that if God were all-powerful then he would not allow sin. However, once God chose to create humans with free will, and then it was up to humans and not God as to whether or not they would obey him. That is what free will is. By creating individuals who would have the ability to decide whether or not to do obey God, God was allowing the possibility of evil. It was human beings who actualized this possibility. So the source of evil is not in God's power but in mans free will. As I said earlier, because God is all-powerful there are some things that he just cannot do. One other example would be creating a world in which people had genuine freedom and yet had no chance of sin. Obviously such a world where there are real choices while at the same time having no choice between good and evil, is impossible.
Why give us the choice then? Why couldn’t God create a world and give people no choice between good and evil? Is our free will necessary?
To answer these questions, we look surprisingly to British spy novelist Frederick Forsyth who demonstrates a reasonable understanding of theology in "The Phantom of Manhattan" the sequel to Gaston Leroux's "The Phantom of the Opera."
Troubles by all the evil he sees around him, Father Joseph Kilfoyle questions God. God responds, " I never made man a guarantee of perfection only the chance of it. That was the whole point of it all. Man has the choice and the chance but never the coercion. I have left him freedom to choose... Look Joseph, if I reached down and touched man on the forehead and made him perfect, what would life on earth be like? No sadness; so no joy. No tears; so no smiles. No pain, so no relief. No bondage; so no freedom. No failure; so no triumph. No rudeness; so no courtesy. No bigotry; so no tolerance. No despair; so no exaltation. No sin and certainly no redemption. I would simply create a paradise of featureless bliss here on earth, which would make my heavenly kingdom somewhat redundant. And that is not the point of it all. So, man must have his choice, until I call him home."
To conclude, our love for God and for others involves a choice. Unfortunately with the coming of this choice also comes the possibility of choosing to hate. And just as Frederick Forsyth says a world without choice may appear as a world without pain or suffering but love and joy also vanish once our choices and free will are taken away. Is it worth it?
2. God is All-Knowing
If God knows everything then he knows not only the past and present but also the future. Just as he knows the past and present good and evil he also knows the future good and evil. Since God's wisdom and knowledge vastly exceeds ours then it is at the very least, possible that a loving God could tolerate bad things because he foresees that in the long run the people affected will be better and happier than had he miraculously intervened. It is intellectually possible.
Through all of time bad thing have happened. One of the worst things that has ever occurred ended up resulting in the very best event in all of history. No one would have foreseen any good that could result from the brutal death of Jesus, an innocent man. But God foresaw that Jesus dying (and then Resurrecting) would be the opening of heaven's gates to all human beings.
3. God is All-Good
I believe that God deliberately allows certain things that if we allowed them also we would be labeled monsters. While I believe this, I don’t necessarily think that this should count against God. Allow me to explain: If a person of equal or greater age or maturity came to me with a problem that I could do something about, and I simply refused to help then I rightfully could be labeled as bad or wicked. However there is many times where, with younger individuals, we refuse to help them. For example we don’t do our children’s homework for them if they are watching television for too long. Just as we wouldn’t to everything for younger individuals, we also would put a bubble around them to protect them from every hurt. We are wise enough to know that if we did this then they would never learn. Now relate it to God. We humans, who are infinitely younger and infinitely less mature, are always asking God for various things that we believe will help take away certain pains that we have. Yet, God is wise enough to foresee that we need some pain for reasons, which we may not seem to understand, but which God sees as absolutely necessary for the eventual good. So I believe that God is not being evil by allowing pain to exist. Dentists, teachers, sports trainers, parents and so many others know that sometimes to do the right thing is not always the most pain free or comfortable.
We know that character is formed through hardship, through overcoming obstacles, and through enduring despite difficulties. Courage, for example,
would never be possible in a world without pain. We learn from the mistakes we make and from the suffering they bring to ourselves and to others. Part of every persons being is to learn, to mature, and to grow through difficult experiences. Even Jesus, "learned through obedience from what he suffered." (Hebrew 5:8). If that were true of Jesus why would we expect anything different for us?
So, in order to help us toward the greater good of moral and spiritual education, God must allow some suffering and pain which deprives us of the lesser good of pleasure.
C. I Can Understand the Necessity of some Pain, But How Can You Justify Such a Large Amount?
First things first: Nobody gets away with evil. Justice delayed is never justice denied. We are told in the Bible that a day will come when God will settle all accounts and people will be held responsible for the evil that they have caused. Some people criticize God for not settling all evil as soon as it is committed. An individual responding to this told me that criticizing God for not settling scores RIGHT NOW is like reading a novel half-way through and then throwing the book away in disgust because the author has not resolved the plot. In both cases we see only part of the plan. The Bible says that God is delaying judgment because individuals are following the clues and just have yet to find God. "The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9). God is simply waiting because he loves us.
Second, it is often said that God could curtail some of the evil. There is a meaning for suffering and one of the many reasons for it is that it leads to repentance. If any of you have read through the Old Testament you will see that it is only after much suffering and great disaster that the nation of Israel turns back to God. In our day too nations turn back to God after suffering. Take the United States for example. A view that was growing quite popular in the U.S. and other countries was the idea that there are no moral absolutes. This view was shattered on September 11,2001. When people saw those planes filled with people crash into the Trade Centers and the Pentagon few were saying, "This is neither good nor evil." No, except for some Palestinian extremists all were shocked and rightfully called it an evil act of barbarism. After that day we say two great examples of leadership in the U.S. Of coarse I speak of the Mayor of New York Rudi Guiliani, and President George Bush. Since that day we have seen tough new laws introduced cracking down on pornography. A bill is about to be signed that will protect the unborn child by outlawing partial birth abortions. Church attendance has gone up and while America is not perfect their seems to be a repentance and a turning of hearts back to God. It is true that some people, and nations too have to learn the hard way. (I do not mean to say that God played a role in bringing about the September 11 attacks, but he has stirred up people to focus more on their Creator). Sadly sometimes the only way someone can learn is the hard way.
You often hear people say, "Why do bad things happen to good people?" When I hear this I cant help to shudder. The reason I shudder is because I know that there are no good people. Now you may be thinking, "what about so-and-so? He's a good person." In a sense you are right for ontologically we are all good for we were made in the Creator's image. However, morally we are not good for His image in us has been tarnished. The good deeds we do are often stained with self-interest just as our demands for justice are mixed with lust and vengeance. This is shown in the Scriptures also. Jeremiah 6:13 states, "From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain..." and Isaiah 64:6 says, "... all our righteous acts are like filthy rags...'' and are very clear. We are good stuff gone bad and ironically it is the best among us who are the first to admit their sin and shortcomings. Because of our flaws, pain and suffering are frequently the means by which we finally become motivated to surrender to God and seek the cure of Christ. I firmly believe, and some people will snicker about this, that what people most desperately need is to know Jesus Christ. Many older people will tell you that to suffer is worth the result, because suffering often leads to something wonderful and that is from God since he is the source of all joy in life.
D. Evil is Evidence For God
People use the existence of evil as a way of denying the chance that a loving God could exist. However, the existence of evil proves that God does exist. If people are outraged by evil then there must be a difference between good and evil. The fact that he is using a standard to judge evil, or even just to show that what evil ought not to be means that he has a notion of what ought to be. Unintentionally people testify to the reality of God because by recognizing evil for he is assuming there is an objective standard upon which it is based. Just as 90% and 30% assume that 100% is the real standard, so too are good and evil based on the standards set by God.
Furthermore, not only does evil prove that God exists, but evils existence works against evolution. Evolutionists claim God does not exist (despite what some of my readers say; the idea of God is rejected by any serious evolutionist) and if there is no God there is no Creation and so everything is as a result of evolution. If there was no beginning and no first cause of the universe then the universe must have always existed. That means that the earth has been evolving over a long period of time, and so everything should be perfect by now. Yet everything is not perfect. There has been plenty of time for evil to vanish but it has not and so the atheist are wrong about this issue and are guilty of providing and inadequate response to a very serious problem.
E. Why Does Evil Exist
I have tried to explain some good things that can come out as a result of evil. I have attempted to explain, although very briefly, how evil is actually evidence that God exists. But why must evil exist in the first place? Why could God not have created a world so perfect that evil could not exist?
1. The Freedom to Choose
God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. Yet as a spiritual creature man can only live this friendship in free submission to God. Man could choose to accept and listen to the Creator or he could choose to try and make it on his own. God left the choice to man and he let man know the consequences. God in no way, directly or indirectly, is the cause for evil. He permits evil because he respects the freedom of his creation and knows how to derive well from evil. In the words of St Augustine "For Almighty God... because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from the consequence of evil"
So, God gave man a choice and man chose evil. Some may ask why bother giving a choice. I have already made mention of this freedom earlier in the article. I wont repeat it but I will offer you a challenge: Pretend that you are God and try to make a better world then the one described in Genesis. Try to create a perfect world; a utopia: Most people would say, "I'd remove the tree that they weren’t allowed to eat from." Yes, certainly that would remove the possibility of evil. Yet this would remove all freedom and choice and would reduce people to puppets. Evil would be gone as would any positive emotions. Would you become a robot if it would mean no more pain and evil? I know the saints would not have. St. Leo the Great wrote that, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those that the demons envy took away." St Thomas Aquinas agrees, "There is nothing to prevent nature's being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil things in order to draw forth some greater good." Finally St Paul in Romans 5:25 wrote that, "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."
2. Adam Chose to Sin
We all know the story. God told Adam and Eve not to eat from a certain tree. Satan in the form of a serpent tempted Eve and she ate. Then she gave some to Adam and he ate also.
Tempted by the devil man let his trust in the Creator die and abusing his freedom he disobeyed God's command. This was man's first sin. All sin since then is disobedience toward God. By sinning man was thinking that he’d become like God but by his very act he scorned God. He chose himself over and against God and against his own good.
Scripture shows the consequence of this first sin. The consequence was that Adam and Eve immediately lost the grace of their original holiness. Interestingly, once they had sinned, both man and woman became afraid of God and tried to hide from him. They felt guilt. The harmony that they had found in Eden was destroyed. The union of woman and man became subject to tensions, and their relations now marked by lust and domination. Soon after, we read of the their son Cain killing his own brother Abel. Then we hear of what follows in the wake of sin. Sin is also frequently manifested in the history of Israel, and those sins usually are infidelity towards God.
3. The Consequence of Adam's Sin For Humanity
Because of Adam's sin, all men since are born sinners. Romans 5:19 states that, "For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were made sinners..." If you read on you realize that just as sin came into the world through one man so too will we be saved from sin trough one man.
The misery that oppresses all of mankind and their inclination toward evil and death, cannot be understood apart from its connection with Adam's sin.
Many wonder how the sin of Adam could become the sin of all his descendants. It is important to realize that his sin does not become ours, but only his sinful nature. There is no easy way to understand this except that by yielding to Satan, both Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, and that sin would affect the human race in that Adam and Eve would now transmit now in a sinful state.
This state was transmitted to their children and since then original sin has existed. There are two important facts to remember about original sin: One, original sin is not committed but contracted, and two, original sin is a state and not an act.
Original sin has often been misunderstood. Those mistaken often hold to one of two extremes. One the one side are those who believe like fifth century Pelagius who taught that by natural processes and free will, without necessarily God's help, that one could lead a morally good life. He reduces the influence of Adam's fault to simply a bad example and rejected the idea of original sin because he did not believe offspring were produced in a fallen state. On the other side were the sixteenth century Protestant reformers who taught that original sin had radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom. The reformers identified original sin as the inheritance by each man who would now have the tendency to commit evil. They believed this challenge to be insurmountable. Stuck between these two views is the one held by the Roman Church. Based on the Scriptures that both the Protestant reformers and the Roman Church rely on, the Roman Church belief on this issue is more consistent. They teach that, "as a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers; subject to the ignorance, suffering, and the domination of death; and the inclination to sin." While sin was a most terrible occurrence the Roman Church teaches of the hope "in the way that Christ won over sin and that he has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us." (Protestant believers would hold this belief also). That is the good news when faced with sin, that even after our fall from grace God did not abandon man. Instead God calls all of mankind and in a most mysterious way he heralds to the coming victory over evil and man's restoration from the fall. Immediately after the fall, God punished the guilty. To Satan and Eve he promised, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers..." What does this mean? It goes on to say, "he will crush your head and you will strike his heal." Who is "he"? To crush a head and to defeat have the same meaning. And it was Jesus Christ who defeated Satan. God is speaking of the Coming of Jesus. Jesus makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience of Adam and all others. We read of this in the New Testament, in the Book of Corinthians, "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through one man." (1 Corinthians 15:21-22). People often criticize God for allowing evil to exist, but I criticize Adam, if anyone, for committing evil and thank God for giving us all another chance.
D. Bearing the Pain
Having established our beliefs in the Creator and in sin, having shown that the existence of evil proves that a Creator exists and having shown that the possibility to commit evil is an unfortunate necessity; the next question is: How do we bear the pain?
St Augustine spent a lot of time on the problem of pain. He wrote, "Since God is the highest good, he would not allow any evil to exist in his work unless his omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good out of evil." That is how we must also deal with pain. We must try, though sometimes it is hard, to bring good out of bad. All suffering and evil have the opportunity for good, but not all actualize that potentiality. Not all learn and benefit from suffering and that is because of man's free will. Many do learn though. Most people can respond to his or her past and say, "I learned from that hardship," or "I didn’t think I would but I’m a bigger better person for having endured it and preserved. I hear this from people who are not religious also. Now if they can bring good out of bad, without necessarily bringing God into the question, then imagine how much more, with God's help, evil can work for the greatest good.
Some people do not handle the concept of pain very well. They say silly things like, "I cannot imagine how a loving God could..." Perhaps they truly cannot imagine allowing whatever it is they are complaining about. Many cannot imagine God doing something-or-other but that does not mean God cannot that. It just means they cannot understand, why perhaps. As I wrote earlier, if we allowed certain things to occur we could be labeled as monsters but for God to do it is a different matter. Just because a human can’t understand how God could do something, as I said, doesn’t not mean God cannot do it. Another occasion that may seem unimaginable, to those "who cannot imagine how..." would be the suffering that Christ endured before his death. Christ did not just feel the pain of the spikes being hammered through his wrists, or the crown of thorns ripping in to his head, but he also felt the agony of all the suffering and evils that existed before he came to earth, that existed while he came to earth, and that have existed ever since. That to me is unimaginable, but I know its true. Where is God while these things are happening? Why doesn’t he do this or that, to stop the pain? Where is he in our pain? I believe that God is with us in both our physical and our moral agony. This is what Christians would call the Incarnation. The Incarnation was the taking on of human form and nature by Jesus Christ the Son of God. Jesus entered into our agony; he bore all the pain of the world, and to me that is shattering. I find it even more impressive than the divine power that God displayed to create the world in the first place. Just imagine all the pain and suffering that has affected every person to ever live on this planet. Imagine all of that pain and suffering rolled into a ball and digested by God. That’s what he did, and it is more than enough to silence those asking Where God is.
We bear suffering. There is no denying this and there is no way around it. But how does God feel about it? We cannot read his mind and receive an answer, but we can look at his actions and draw reasonable conclusions. So what does God feel when he sees pain in others. After man sinned God could have sat back left it to humans. He would have been justified of coarse, but who then could have loved him? God went beyond justice and incredibly took all the sufferings upon him. Many people do not love Jesus Christ, but I ask: How could you not love this Jesus who went the extra mile, who practiced more than he preached, who entered into our sinful world, who suffered and who now offers himself to us in the midst of our sorrows? What more could he do?
People grumble and say "How can God bear all the suffering in this world?" The answer is he DID bear all the suffering in this world. And we to must bear suffering, though it will be considerably less than Christ’s. He sets an example for us though that not all are willing to face. I think of the story of Vladimir Lenin. Lenin was sixteen years old and thinking of becoming a Orthodox priest. His priest one day told Lenin's class, "The cross is a symbol of human suffering. Suffering is good." Lenin, at that point reached into his shirt, tore off his crucifix and yelled, "Then I will have none of it." He became an atheist, and the political system in Russia that he would establish caused more death and suffering than any other evil in this century. Before you pass judgment on the Orthodox priest, I beg you; think. Perhaps he could have been more sensitive, but he is right also. If we want to follow God there will be more suffering in this world for us than if we chose not to follow him. We can endure that suffering because we hope for Heaven. And Heaven, as a wise woman wrote, is a comforting thought. "In light of heaven, the worst suffering, a life full of the most atrocious tortures on earth, will be seen to be no more serious than one night in an inconvenient hotel." That is a bold statement, I know, but once in the perfect Heaven where there is no suffering, nothing else will matter. That quote was by St Teresa, and she did not live in an insulated bubble but rather in a life of suffering. With knowing God eternally nothing else counts, and if the way to this intimacy with God is through pain, than all who share in this friendship will tell you its worth it. That is one major reason why there is so much faith in the poor countries.
I do not mean to make light of suffering. Indeed the burden it causes is of an enormous weight but compared to goodness it is nothing.
E. The Power of God's Presence
I find it almost comical to hear that the most common objection to God comes due to the problem of pain, and it comes from outside observers, that is those who live comfortably. On the other hand are those who the comfortable people don’t think twice about; the poor people. Those poor who suffer are made into stronger believers through suffering.
The Christian author Philip Yancey makes note of this paradox. "As I visited people whose pain far exceeded my own... I was surprised to see its effects. Here suffering seemed as likely to reinforce faith Scottish theologian James Stewart goes even further, "It is the spectators, the people on the outside, from those whose ranks the skeptics come; it is not those who are actually in the arena and who know suffering from the inside." Indeed the fact is that the world’s greatest sufferers have produced the most shining examples of unconquerable faith.
With free will we can choose how we are going to react to suffering. When we see suffering we must choose to minister, comfort embrace and weep with those who are hurt. We must be Jesus to others, being a reflection of God's love. Poverty exists not because God is cruel but because people who have enough refuse to share. Two men are talking: The first says, If I could ask God anything Id ask him why he allows poverty, famine and injustice when he could do something about it. The second says, " I am afraid God would ask me that same question."
We can also look to the story of Job. After all of the trials and tribulations that he has gone through, Job is beginning to wonder if God is not just a supernatural sadist. God hears Job questioning him and he blasts him. "Who are you? Are you God? Did you write this script? Were you there when I laid down the foundations of the earth?" Job realizes that the answer to all of these questions is "No." He is satisfied that God has shown himself to him and he realizes that God did not let Job suffer because he lacked love, but because he did love.
F. God is With Us
"One night a man had a dream. He dreamt that he was walking along the beach with the Lord. Across the sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand; one belonged to him and the other to the Lord.
"When the last scene of his life flashed before him the man looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in his life.
"This really bothered the man and he questioned the Lord, 'Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you, you'd walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life there is only one set of footprints. I don’t understand why, when I needed you the most, you would abandon me.'
"The Lord replied, 'My precious, precious child, I love you and would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you saw only one say of footprints, it was then that I carried you.' "
This famous poem "Footprints" reminds us that the answer to suffering can be found in the Answerer Jesus Christ. Suffering is not an abstract idea, but a personal issue, and a personal issue requires more than a personal response. Jesus is there sitting beside us in the lower parts of our lives. Are we hurt? He was hurt. Are we hated? He was hated. Are we betrayed? He was betrayed? Do people turn their backs on us? People hid their faces from him as he was dying on the cross. Jesus descends to our hells, because he has been through them also. Jesus was gassed with many in Auschwitz; He is denied rights in Belfast; He is bombed in Israel; shot in Tianammen...
Jesus is more than an explanation: He is what we truly need. When a friend is sick or dying he does not want a scientific explanation from you. Instead he wants someone to sit with him and be there for them. And that is what Jesus does for he has never left us.
G. Drawing Good from Evil
An individual that I am familiar with, who experienced a very traumatic experience told me this: "I've experienced God's goodness through deep pain, and no skeptic can dispute that! The God who the skeptic denies is the same God who held our hands in the deep, dark places, who strengthened our marriage, who deepened our faith, and who increased our reliance on him, and who infused my life with a purpose and meaning so that we can make a difference to others.
"We live in a broken world; Jesus was honest enough to tell us that we'd have our trials and tribulations. Sure I'd like to understand more about why. But your right-the ultimate answer is in Jesus' presence. That sounds sappy, I know. But just wait-when your world is rocked, you don’t want philosophy of theology as much as you want the reality of Christ. He was the answer for me. He was the answer I needed.
Like this individual we must see the good that can result from the bad.
H. Conclusion
I could right out a long drawn out conclusion. However, perhaps some of you are becoming irritated because I have repeated some things. So it would not do me good to continue repeating. Creationists believe in a Creator while evolutionists deny the supernatural. We have Design vs. Chance. If one could delete the Designer then chance wins. Many try to delete the Designer by pointing to the existence of evil. So I conclude by asking; does evil prove that there is no God? I'd like to poll you; do you answer yes or no?
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2 by John, posted 07-31-2003 12:08 PM | | The General has replied |
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