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Member (Idle past 376 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Does Evolution Have An Objective? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Catholic Scientist writes:
Why? But those choices would be an illusion... The outcome already existed beforehand.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
1.61803 writes: How could something be a choice if it is predetermined? Why would that be relevant? We have free will if our actions cannot be predicted without knowledge of our internal state. We choose because our nervous systems are responsible for our actions. It matters not a jot whether those nervous systems are deterministic or not.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Catholic Scientist writes: The outcome already existed beforehand. Well, no, it didn't. It could be predicted with total knowledge, but that's not quite the same thing. And that ability to predict has no baring on whether or not we have free will.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Mr Jack writes: No, a gene has no concept of that objective, and takes no steps based on that concept to achieve it. You previously used the example of a bee foraging for nectar as an objective. Does a bee have a concept of that objective? Isn't it more unconscious instinct? You previously used the example of an AI computer having an objective. Does the computer have a concept of that objective?
Mr Jack writes: What would hold that objective? Hold that objective conceptually? I don't think a gene could. But I am not sure that bees or currently existing AI computer programmes can either.
Mr Jack writes: What steps would it be taking in response to that objective? Passing itself on successfully I guess. Personally I am unconvinced that objectives can be assigned to entities that cannot consciously hold them. But with your bee and computer example I thought you were taking a different approach.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1532 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Mr Jack writes: 1.61803 writes: How could something be a choice if it is predetermined? Why would that be relevant? We have free will if our actions cannot be predicted without knowledge of our internal state. We choose because our nervous systems are responsible for our actions. It matters not a jot whether those nervous systems are deterministic or not. Hi Jack, I appreciate your point. It matters not whether the nervous system is deterministic or not. Except, It seems the brain chooses up to 10 seconds prior to the conscious person does. So our brain "knows" the outcome before our conscious mind does. A PET scan operator can know the outcome of your choices prior to you.Unconscious determinants of free decisions in the human brain | Nature Neuroscience Edited by 1.61803, : add link Edited by 1.61803, : link correction
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I guess we understand different things by the phrase "completely deterministic"...
Well, no, it didn't. It could be predicted with total knowledge, but that's not quite the same thing. And that ability to predict has no baring on whether or not we have free will. It makes it an illusion! You're not really really making any choice at all. In Message 17 you wrote:
We have free will if our actions cannot be predicted without knowledge of our internal state. We choose because our nervous systems are responsible for our actions. It matters not a jot whether those nervous systems are deterministic or not. Predictive ability doesn't really matter. If the outcome of the action of your nervous system is pre-determined by the condtions leading up to it, then you're not really making any choices, even if there's an illusion set-up that makes it look and feel like you are.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Have you seen the experiment with the green dot that changes red as it flys across the screen and the people seeing the red dot before it even gets there and before its even red... or somethign like that?
I can't seem to google it up because I can't remember enough about it. You know what I'm talking about?
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1532 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes:
I have not heard of that one. However I did hear about a experiment concerning Top Gun pilots. Researchers where interested in how they could make split second choices that always seemed to be the correct choice. In other words what gave them they're edge. The hooked them up to various telemetry to record brain waves, vital signs etc.. Then on a screen showed randomly selected images that were either disturbing or relaxing. The pilots brain waves and vital signs preceded the randomly selected image by some milliseconds before the image was shown.
You know what I'm talking about?
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
I have no idea why people think the unconscious mind is not also them.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Of course you're still making choices, why wouldn't you be?
I can write a computer program that makes choices.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Of course you're still making choices, why wouldn't you be? You are not really making the choice if its pre-determnined, its just an illusion that you're actually making a choice.
I can write a computer program that makes choices. If its "completely determined", then you the programmer will decide what choice the computer makes, not the computer itself.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8558 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
I have no idea why people think the unconscious mind is not also them. That's easy. The unconscious mind is not part of our awareness, which is what most people think of as "them". That other parts of the mind have coordinated a decision before passing it on to our awareness for action is outside the conscious experience.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Mr Jack writes: Of course you're still making choices, why wouldn't you be? If one's actions are immutably predetermined before any decision or choice has even been made then there is no choice at all is there? There is just the illusion of a "decision" or "choice" because it would be impossible to do anything other than than which was predetermined. In a strictly deterministic world freewill is an illusion because choice is an illusion. No? Edited by Straggler, : Grammar
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
If one's actions are immutably predetermined before any decision or choice has even been made then there is no choice at all is there? Compatabilists might argue that choice is really the result of subjective beings presented with imperfect information. Dan Dennet argues this quite well. From wiki:
quote:
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1532 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
I agree Jack, our brain is us. I do not believe the universe is fully deterministic in the sense of a clock-work universe.
I believe it is both deterministic and chaotic.
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