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Author Topic:   Overkill, Overchill, Overill? Megafaunal extinction causes
Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 2 of 64 (60961)
10-15-2003 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mammuthus
10-15-2003 6:35 AM


The systematic extermination of other major hunters by humans caused a population explosion in the mega-herbivores that destabilised the environment and led to a population crash.
Maybe.

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 Message 1 by Mammuthus, posted 10-15-2003 6:35 AM Mammuthus has replied

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 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 10-15-2003 7:26 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 4 of 64 (60965)
10-15-2003 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mammuthus
10-15-2003 7:26 AM


Hypothesised? No, hypothesised about it, M. We know of many megafauna hunters, sabre-tooth tigers being the most famous example.
I don't really see why kill-sites (meaning a site showing the remains of vast numbers of prey species, yes?) are expected. A Mammoth carries a lot of food, so I would expect killing individuals and moving to the corpse to be a sane strategy for nomadic tribes peoples.
I got this hyopthesis from an excellent web-site, unfortunately I can't find the thing now. I'll probably have another search later.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 6 of 64 (60975)
10-15-2003 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Mammuthus
10-15-2003 8:06 AM


They might get lucky and pick of a few juveniles separated from the herd or isolated males in a weakend state but much like modern elephants, it is doubtful mammoths had serious natural predators other than humans.
Mammoths are by no means the only mega fauna of the age. I think it's highly likely that the very large carnivores that lived in the same period as the very large herbivores ate said herbivores. Otherwise I can see no explanation for their also increased size. I was also under the impression that adult mammoth remains had been found with teeth marks consistent with those of sabre-tooth tiger, although this might have been after-death scavenging.
This would be a sane strategy but it is not what is proposed by overkill. If human hunters killed a couple of mammoths each season you would not expect kill sites..on the other hand you would not expect mammoths to be extinct either.
I'm not advocating the overkill hypothesis.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 8 of 64 (60983)
10-15-2003 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Mammuthus
10-15-2003 9:59 AM


What is your prefered hypothesis then? Do you see the correlation of mega-fauna extinction with the arrival of man as purely co-incidental?

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 43 of 64 (61932)
10-21-2003 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by wmscott
10-20-2003 9:30 PM


The idea of Homo Sapiens Sapiens taking out Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis is ridiculous, the average Neandertal could have taken the average Sapiens and twisted him into a pretzel. With greater brain capacity and much greater strength, Neandertal had a huge advantage, thinking otherwise is simply pure sapiens arrogance. Without the effect of the Pleistocene extinction event, I would have predicted the opposite out come, which means we may owe our very existence to this past event.
It is my understanding that Homo (Sapiens?) Neanderthalis has three major disadvantages when compared to Homo Sapiens Sapiens. We can run better. We have arms better suited to throwing. In other words we have range and mobility on our side should it come to a fight. We eat a wider variety of food (from analysis of bone data from Neanderthals - they ate a higher proportion of meat, much closer to a pure carnivour diet).
Secondly, larger brain capacity does not directly imply higher intelligence. Without external evidence I see little reason to believe Neanderthals were actually smarter than humans.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 45 of 64 (61945)
10-21-2003 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Speel-yi
10-21-2003 12:06 PM


Then it also appears that Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon may not have been in direct competition for resources. Yet another knock against replacement.
Hmm, I don't think that follows. While Neanderthals would require (almost) exclusively meat and Cro-Magnons wouldn't. Cro-magnon man still hunted, and probably the same kind of prey. That's pretty direct competition, and what's more only in one direction (a more successful Neanderthal would have limited impact on the more diverse diet of the Cro-Magnon while a successful Cro-Magnon would impact the main resource of a Neanderthal). I'd say that's a boon for replacement theory.

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