Ring species

Chimpanzee's are classified in the Hominidae Family along with Gorillas and Orangutans and...Humans. We ARE part of the classification known as the "Great Apes".As far as comparing Humans with Chimpanzees, we share about 96% of our genes with them, so I have to wonder what degree of difference you would consider for being a 'kind'. (of course that topic has been brought up many times here...)

I'm not forcing an evolutionary classification on to the definition of kinds. I am trying to understand what you mean by the definition of 'kind'. How do we know they are different kinds if we don't have a definition of what constitutes a 'kind'?Who is "we"? Are you confusing the mount of genetic change that has taken place with the degree of genetic change possible?What limits the amount of micro-evolution possible?

Nope. Just looking for a clear definition of what constitutes a "kind". Then we have examples of salamanders Ensatina eschscholtzii, fly's, birds Greenish Warbler, etc of not being able to reproduce even though they look remarkably similar to each other. But that just obscures the big idea, that being unable to reproduce seperates kinds. If that is the case, then there would be 1000's of kinds even among the birds. What do you mean when you say, "...how much micro-evolution is possible"? You appear to be saying that there is some arbitrary limit to micro-evolution. If so, what is that limitation?You're traveling dangerously close to the Theory of Evolution when you say, "If it isn't possible for the two types to have evolved from a common ancestor, then they must be different kinds". Common ancestry is a central pillar of the ToE. ie. We share a common ancestor with the chimpanzees.If we share common ancestry with the chimpanzees, then we are of the same kind? Cute. I wasn't aware you were royalty. Is there anyone else who, "...know[s] that humans and chimps must be different kinds..."? Are you the only one that "knows" chimpanzees must be different kinds? How do you determine how much genetic change is impossible? You seem to suggest that nature does, but it is clear from the fossil record that speciation is still going on even after 100's of millions of years.

You might want to take the time to read this from Darren Irwin's website.As far as determining the ability to reproduce of ring species, there have been other studies as well that show ring species who's hybridization attempts were unsuccessful or had low viability rates.In any case, the point is that small genetic changes accumulate until there is a point when the species splits and form a distinct and seperate species. The papaer I site above goes into the species concept and possible alternatives to the allopatric species concept. Species that are genetically isolated from each other but share a recent common ancestor, such as ring species, are reproductively viable among their respective groups. If such was the case that deleterious genes built up then we would expect that reproductive viability would decline. ie We would expect to see a statistically significant amount of dead/mutated birds as we move along to different hybridization zones and not viable communities.To take things further, we would expect that as evolution progressed, we would not see new groups develop because of the tremendous amount of deleterious genes that were built up during speciation. Unless you think it is a much slower process than that? Of course that would be a problem if you believed in Creationism, because that would still allow for evolution to have taken place. If, such as in my case, I understand that the Earth has had living organisms for 100's of millions of years, then I don't see a limit to the accumulation of mutations other than the viability of the earth to sustain life. Why could you not allow for a SLOW rate of change over a very LONG time? If, over a long time, the genetic change continues then more mutations will be evident and what was once a homogenous groups will split and become a new group. If my group is reproductively isolated from the parent group, for whatever reason, for 10's of million's of years, what do you think will happen?