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Author Topic:   Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement?
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 467 of 760 (613618)
04-26-2011 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by shadow71
04-26-2011 12:00 PM


Swing and a miss
To me this demonstrates some qualifed scientists do accept Ho as revelant and not a "nutbag".
Couple of words about that paper.
One. This paper has never been cited. By anyone. Ever.
Two. It was published in a rinky dink backwater South American journal which no one cites. Source.
That's pathetic. Seriously.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 469 of 760 (613620)
04-26-2011 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by shadow71
04-26-2011 12:00 PM


Epigenetics not a part of modern synthesis?
As far as epilgenetics goes, I do not fully understand it...
That's an understatement.
...but in the papers I have been reading the authors are saying "epigenetics" and other means of organismatic change may well be beyond the current theory, and there is a need for a new theory.
That's going to be news to the scientists who have written over 51,000 papers on epigenetics. Source.
And I betcha it's gonna be a big surprise for the folks that authored over 39,000 papers on epigenetics and evolution. Source.

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 Message 466 by shadow71, posted 04-26-2011 12:00 PM shadow71 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by jar, posted 04-26-2011 12:14 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 471 of 760 (613623)
04-26-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by jar
04-26-2011 12:14 PM


Re: Epigenetics not a part of modern synthesis?
No question about that, Jar.
What's a girl to do?
I've spent the last two weeks just trying to get him to cite the literature.

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 472 of 760 (613659)
04-26-2011 3:11 PM


Sheldrake and Ho sittin in a tree ...
It looks like I'm not the only one linking her to Sheldrake.
Looking through the journal’s contents is certainly er.. interesting, even Rupert Sheldrake makes an appearance! And look who’s on the advisory board.. Mae Wan Ho a well known crack pot. eg see here: Water, Water, Everywhere, Part 3 - The Strangeness of Water & Homeopathic 'Memory'
Source.
And looks like she's a Discovery Institute girl. Source.
Ho's an HIV denialist too.
In case anyone's interested: There were four names on the Discovery Institute's list of Darwin skeptics and on the list of HIV/AIDS doubters: Robert W. Bass, Bruce D Evans, Mae-Wan Ho, and Jonathan Wells.
Source.
And it looks like she has a problem with the first and second laws of thermodynamics.
Mae Wan Ho is another crank who believes that living organisms are able to violate the Second Law of thermodynamics.
In the third chapter she even presumes, in a sure sign of crankitude, to rewrite the Second Law to fit with her idiosyncratic ideas ... If that weren't bad enough, she even claims that living organisms can violate the First Law.
Source.
Homeopathy, biophotons, morphic fields, quantum healing, radionics, polyphasic water, HIV denialist, antivaxer, Discovery Instituter, and she denies the 1st and 2nd laws of thermo!
Now that's a CV!

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 511 of 760 (619949)
06-13-2011 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 505 by shadow71
06-12-2011 7:19 PM


You have got to be kidding me
Pigliucci cannot use those terms because he is an Atheist dedicated to the BELIEF not scientific fact that evolution cannot be planned.
You cite an expert and then reject that expert's findings.
You don't get to pick and choose the bits of the paper you like, shadow.
The guy said, and I quote:
Do these new potential developments represent the possibility of what Kuhn called a paradigm shift, that is a dramatic change in the way we understand evolution? I doubt it. ... The fundamental Darwinian insights that all life on earth share a common descent, and that natural selection is a major mechanism of diversification of biological forms, are still valid and at the core of evolutionary theory.
Period. End of sentence.
You are not an expert.
He is.
Those are his conclusions.
There's no "But but but he's an atheist!"
You gotta problem with the atheist's conclusions, you cite one of those creo papers you go on and on about (and have yet to produce).

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 Message 505 by shadow71, posted 06-12-2011 7:19 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by shadow71, posted 06-13-2011 4:44 PM molbiogirl has replied
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 527 of 760 (620008)
06-13-2011 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 520 by shadow71
06-13-2011 4:44 PM


Re: You have got to be kidding me
So it's his OPINION that the scientific findings he cites do not change the theory, that is not a fact.
You're a hoot, shadow.
This guy says "that natural selection is a major mechanism of diversification of biological forms [is] still valid and at the core of evolutionary theory".
He says "biology is a clear example of a science that has proceeded at least since 1859 ... without any [paradigm] shift."
He says "none of these additions have in any way undermined the foundations of the Darwinian edifice."
That's his expert opinion.
Just as it's Shapiro's expert opinion that there is a paradigm shift. From Shaprio's book ad: "James A. Shapiro's Evolution: A View from the 21st Century proposes an important new paradigm for understanding biological evolution."
You can't have it both ways. They're both expert opinions. Dismiss one as "just an opinion" and you must dismiss both.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


(1)
Message 552 of 760 (620139)
06-14-2011 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 537 by Dr Adequate
06-13-2011 8:50 PM


Just an opinion?
Actually, it isn't necessary for ideologues to "silence" Pigliucci when he says: "This, contrary to the misleading claims of creationists and other pseudoscientists, is no harbinger of a crisis but rather the opposite [...] none of these additions have in any way undermined the foundations of the Darwinian edifice".
Nice find, Dr. A!
Allow me to quote the whole abstract for shadow.
Evolutionary theory is undergoing an intense period of discussion and reevaluation. This, contrary to the misleading claims of creationists and other pseudoscientists, is no harbinger of a crisis but rather the opposite: the field is expanding dramatically in terms of both empirical discoveries and new ideas. In this essay I briefly trace the conceptual history of evolutionary theory from Darwinism to neo-Darwinism, and from the Modern Synthesis to what I refer to as the Extended Synthesis, a more inclusive conceptual framework containing among others evo-devo, an expanded theory of heredity, elements of complexity theory, ideas about evolvability, and a reevaluation of levels of selection. I argue that evolutionary biology has never seen a paradigm shift, in the philosophical sense of the term, except when it moved from natural theology to empirical science in the middle of the 19th century. The Extended Synthesis, accordingly, is an expansion of the Modern Synthesis of the 1930s and 1940s, and one that--like its predecessor--will probably take decades to complete.
Are you going to dismiss this as "just an opinion" as well?
As I mentioned upthread, dismiss Pigluicci's expert opinion and you must dismiss Shapiro's.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 556 of 760 (620410)
06-16-2011 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 553 by shadow71
06-15-2011 8:40 PM


Pigliucci said what?
Both Shapiro and Pigliuccci are saying that micro and macro evolution are not the same, ie. macroevolution is not just gradual micro evolution.
From Pigliucci's book, Denying Evolution: Creationism, Scientism, and the Nature of Science.
One of the creationists' persistent questions concerns the distinction between micro- and macroevolution. Scientists use these terms in a very different way from what creationists seem to imply, which is part of the problem.
Eldredge and Gould attempted to link a standard theory of the origin of new species proposed by biologist Ernst Mayr with the observable fossil record -- that is, to link, to link micro- and macroevolution by means of an established theory and the available empirical evidence. They succeeded.
Darn that Pigliucci. His words keep getting in the way of your ideas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by shadow71, posted 06-15-2011 8:40 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by shadow71, posted 06-16-2011 4:18 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 572 of 760 (620459)
06-16-2011 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by shadow71
06-16-2011 4:18 PM


Re: Pigliucci said what?
Notice the names in the middle of your quote? Eldredge & Gould?
Notice the names in the quote I posted upthread? Eldredge & Gould?
He's talking about E&G because they are credited with a little something know as punctuated equilibrium.
Now let's take a peek at this bit of your quote:
...the gradual evolution described by MS-type population genetics models will not always account for macroevolutionary change...
Pigliucci's talking about gradual change. And about how micro to macro doesn't always occur gradually. Sometimes the change from micro to macro occurs real quick! Hence the "punctuated" in punctuated equilibrium. He is not talking about micro not leading to macro.
Now let's take another look at that quote from upthread!
Eldredge and Gould attempted to link a standard theory of the origin of new species proposed by biologist Ernst Mayr with the observable fossil record -- that is, to link, to link micro- and macroevolution by means of an established theory and the available empirical evidence. They succeeded.
See how I did that there? E&G linked micro to macro.
Furthermore, had you bothered to read the paper you quoted, you would have noticed that E&G are part of what Pigliucci calls the ES, not the MS.
See? Right here in the section called An Extended Synthesis?
The question that has been raised by an increasing number of evolutionary biologists over the past decade or so is whether, more than half a century after the consolidation of the MS, an update to the conceptual structure of evolutionary biology is needed (Rollo 1995; Schlichting & Pigliucci 1998; Carroll 2000; Gould 2002; Muller 2007; Pigliucci 2007).
And right here? Just a little bit later in the section?
Instead, a good way to understand the import of the ES is to use Gould's (2002) scheme of the agency, efficacy, and scope...
Did you get a chance to skim the conclusion?
The second ellipse, the MS, added new ideas (Mendelism, the mathematical theory of population and statistical genetics) and unified fields of research (genetics, paleontology, natural history). Analogously, the third ellipse, the ES, continues the trend by incorporating more new ideas (e.g., complexity theory, epigenetic inheritance, and evolvability) and bringing under a unified umbrella further areas of inquiry (e.g., genomics, evo—devo, and potentially ecology).
Now let's take one last look at a snippet of your quote.
... [that] the MS is simply ill equipped to deal with ...
The MS. Not the ES.
Howzabout you show me where Pigliucci said micro doesn't lead to macro? That would be mighty impressive.
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by shadow71, posted 06-16-2011 4:18 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by shadow71, posted 06-17-2011 12:44 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 582 of 760 (620546)
06-17-2011 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by shadow71
06-17-2011 12:44 PM


Re: Pigliucci said what?
What Pigliucci is saying is that microevolution does not lead to macroevolutionary changes.
Huh. So, on the one hand, Pigliucci believes that E&G linked micro to macro. On the other hand, he denies that micro leads to macro? That's fascinating.
Funny, tho.
I don't see micro mentioned in that quote. Can you point that out for me?
Hey, shadow. You wanna know where he talks about micro & macroevolution? In his books.
There is no fundamental incompatibility between macroevolution and microevolution in a general evolutionary theory.
You know where else Pigliucci talks about micro and macro evolution? In his debate with Hovind. Have a listen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj0m6GrFR3A
You know where else Pigliucci talks about micro and macro evolution? On his blog.
[In answering a creotard who denies micro leads to macro] Finally, again, incomplete explanations don't invalidate the general picture. We don't know how to reconcile quantum mechanics with general relativity, but no physicist thinks that we therefore ought to conclude that either (or both) theories are wrong.
As a final note, in perusing his blog I found this.
What exactly is it that the MS does not incorporate and may require an Extended Synthesis? Ah, this brings us back to why creationists, IDers and others who have been writing about this over the past few months are either misunderstanding the issue or (surely in the case of the Discovery Institute) are deliberately distorting it to serve their inane agenda.
LOL!
Have you two met?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by shadow71, posted 06-17-2011 12:44 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by shadow71, posted 06-18-2011 3:18 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 583 of 760 (620561)
06-17-2011 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 581 by Percy
06-17-2011 2:51 PM


Re: Pigliucci said what?
Molbiogirl provided relevant excerpts from Gould and Eldredge, and these would seem to indicate that your interpretation is clearly wrong.
I think you might mean Dr. A?
He also says that projecting microevolutionary changes forward is a poor predictor of macroevolutionary changes, which does not say one does not lead to the other.
Pigliucci used his physics metaphor to illustrate just this point.
Try to get a physicist to give you a full account of what goes on in your living room -- at the quantum level...

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


(1)
Message 592 of 760 (620630)
06-18-2011 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by shadow71
06-18-2011 3:18 PM


Re: Pigliucci said what?
Is he saying that we don't know how to reconcile micro with macro evolution?
I'm assuming you know about as much about physics as you do about biology. QM describes things at very small scales. GR describes things like ordinary stuff (Newtonian stuff) and special relativity. Both QM and GR have been thoroughly tested. Both have passed with flying colors.
The Theory of Everything is (according to wiki)
The primary problem in producing a TOE is that general relativity and quantum mechanics are hard to unify. This is one of the unsolved problems in physics
Hard. But not impossible. The Grand Unifying Theory, which unified electromagnetism with the strong and weak forces, is considered to be a "step" toward the TOE. Lots and lots of physical observations (like dark matter) have been explained by the GUT. But the TOE is incomplete. Gravity needs to be tied in.
For our purposes, QM = micro, GR = macro, GUT = MS, TOE = ES.
Are you arguing that since we can't, in Pigliucci's words, "get a physicist to give you a full account of what goes on in your living room -- at the quantum level", the GUT is invalid? Are you arguing that QM doesn't "lead to" GR? That they are fundamentally two different things? Cause that ain't what Pigliucci says. And I guarantee you, a buncha physicists would have your head onna stick.
Both the GUT & the MS have been, again in Pigliucci's words, tested and found to "by means of an established theory and the available empirical evidence [linked the micro & macro]". He is simply trying include a few things (see Figure 1 in his paper) to establish an ES, just as the physicists are trying to include gravity in the GUT to establish a TOE.
You are just another creo/IDiot who "either [misunderstands] the issue or ... [is] deliberately distorting it to serve [his] inane agenda."
ABE: Over the weekend, I thought of another metaphor. Neuroscientists are currently unable to fully explain the mind in terms of the brain. Would you therefore contend that brain and mind are two entirely separate phenomena? Would you then contend that the brain does not "lead to" the mind?
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

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 Message 589 by shadow71, posted 06-18-2011 3:18 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by shadow71, posted 06-25-2011 3:42 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


(1)
Message 617 of 760 (621406)
06-25-2011 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 612 by shadow71
06-25-2011 3:42 PM


Re: Pigliucci said what?
shadow writes:
Descartes theory of dualism, this quote is from wilkipedia
I figured you'd go the ghost-in-the-machine route. No neuroscientist worth his spit buys that crap. And neither does Pigluicci.
Here's Pigluicci on Descartes and dualism:
Indeed, if you are a dualist (as in mind-body) you actually have a hard time explaining exactly how is it possible that the mind and the body are thus connected (a much bigger mind, Rene Descartes, tried and miserably failed).
But if you are an old-fashioned materialist scientist you actually expect a connection between mind and body because they are both the results of biological functions.
Dualism is hopelessly flawed...
I am most certainly not invoking mysticism or dualism here, I think that intelligence (and consciousness) are the result of the activity of a physical brain substrate.
Everything we think and do must be rooted in our brain at some level, unless one wishes to invoke a form of spooky dualism about mental states.
And you side stepped the physics question. Does QM lead to Newtonian physics?
shadow writes:
I am arguing that both Shapiro, Pigliucci and others are saying that the theories of microevolution and macroevolution are not able to be reconciled at this point.
I am not talking about Shapiro. I am talking about Pigliucci. And Pigliucci said:
...incomplete explanations don't invalidate the general picture.
And Pigliucci said:
We don't know how to reconcile quantum mechanics with general relativity, but no physicist thinks that we therefore ought to conclude that either (or both) theories are wrong.
That is crystal clear. Unambiguous. Pigluicci is saying the exact opposite of this:
shadow writes:
That they arise separately, and as of now it is not fully known what drives them.
And, finally, from his blog, here's Pigliucci on Shapiro:
I am somewhat familiar with Shapiro's work. He is an excellent microbiologist, but has always had a rebellious streak with a penchant for making unnecessarily provocative statements. Bacteria have nothing like cognition in any meaningful sense of the term, and to use that word in that context is a willful misunderstanding of its meaning.
Shapiro is not an evolutionary biologist. I do not doubt for a moment that we have much to learn from the way in which natural selection shaped bacteria, but to talk about cognition, intelligence and so forth is unhelpful and misleading.
I don't dismiss Shapiro's work, only his unhelpful use of terms like "cognition" and "intelligence" where they clearly don't belong. These terms are normally used in a certain way, which even an undergraduate in biology can tell you is not appropriate for bacteria.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 627 of 760 (621628)
06-27-2011 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 612 by shadow71
06-25-2011 3:42 PM


Re: Pigliucci said what?
Pigliucci and others are saying that the theories of microevolution and macroevolution are not able to be reconciled at this point..
You didn't bother to listen to the Hovind Pigliucci debate, did you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj0m6GrFR3A
At 20:39, Hovind specifically addresses micro v. macro, using his banana/dog schtick. Pigliucci’s response at 27:45:
Continents move by accumulation of small movements over a long period of time. Now in talking about continental drift instead of evolution, you would be asking me, How silly! You really think that South America and Africa were one, joined in the same continent? That’s silly. Look at them today. You can’t observe that happening."
But we have very good indirect evidence that that’s exactly what happened. And that happened by small, incremental changes over a long periods of time.
The same exact way that bananas and dogs come from a common ancestor. By small changes over a very long period of time.
Is that clear? Micro leads to macro. Period. End of sentence.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 704 of 760 (622917)
07-07-2011 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 697 by shadow71
07-06-2011 7:37 PM


You're really reaching now
Interciencia? A backwater Venuzuelan "journal" that ranks below journals from Nigeria, Bulgaria & Tunisia in cites? A "journal" that ranks 16,154 out of 18,750? A "journal" whose scientific influence is rated at .03 (compared to Nature whose scientific influence is rated at 17,588)? Source.
You wanna know who else has a scientific influence rating of .03? International Tinnitus Journal, Saudi Dental Journal & Indian Journal of Sexually Transmitted Diseases.
And a paper that hasn't been cited? At all? Ever?
By an author whose paper The Risks of Tilapia Culture in Venuzeula got more cites than the paper you quoted?
By an author who, in nearly 30 years of publishing, manages, at best, 2 cites for one of his papers on aquaculture?
Way to pick em, dude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by shadow71, posted 07-06-2011 7:37 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by shadow71, posted 07-07-2011 1:31 PM molbiogirl has replied

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