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Author Topic:   Mythology and Belief of Anti-Theism
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 138 of 165 (618267)
06-02-2011 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by New Cat's Eye
05-31-2011 9:43 AM


Bare Basics
Let's cut to the chase here:
I believe that any concept of god is far more likely to be a figment of human imagination than to actually exist. I consider this a positively evidenced position.
Which part of this do you disagree with exactly? Which part of this do you consider "irrational"...? And on what basis?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-31-2011 9:43 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Phat, posted 06-02-2011 10:23 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 142 of 165 (618395)
06-03-2011 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Phat
06-02-2011 10:23 PM


Re: Bare Basics
Phat writes:
I for one had what I believed to be a spiritual experience.
I don't dispute for a moment that you had a subjective experience. But what, other than belief, causes you to think that it was caused by anything "spiritual"....?
Phat writes:
Human imagination? Maybe...but I wouldn't give it such a high probability, personally.
But it is you who is citing a "spiritual" cause for this experience as more probable than any of the other conceivable causes. I on the other hand consider all evidentially baseless causes as improbable.
I mean - seriously - If someone had the same experience as you and they chose to attribute it to fluctuations in the matrix rather than something "spiritual" would they have any more or less cause for their belief than you do for yours?
I believe that any concept of the-matrix/god is far more likely to be a figment of human imagination than to actually exist. I consider this a positively evidenced position.
Which part of this do you disagree with exactly? Which part of this do you consider "irrational"...? And on what basis?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Phat, posted 06-02-2011 10:23 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Panda, posted 06-03-2011 8:38 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 146 of 165 (618717)
06-05-2011 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by anglagard
06-04-2011 1:22 PM


Re: Guilty of Heresy in Athiest Court
anglagard writes:
1. The term 'agnostic' is a perfectly good English word used in order to describe the condition of not knowing enough to give a definite opinion either way in regard to the existence or non-existence of any purported deities.
2. Such purported deities existence or non-existence can not be proven.
If lack of proof, and thus lack of certainty, is all that is required for "agnosticism" then I am agnostic about pretty much everything. Including your existence and (depending just how philosophically pedantic one wants to get) maybe even my own existence as well. But I don't think such an all encompassing use of terminology is very helpful outside of pedantic philosophical circles.
anglagard writes:
The term 'agnostic' is a perfectly good English word used in order to describe the condition of not knowing enough to give a definite opinion either way in regard to the existence or non-existence of any purported deities.
What we can say is A) That there is absolutely no remotely reliable evidence that such things do actually exist. B) That there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that humans are intensely prone to inventing such things for reasons unrelated to their actual existence.
On this basis I believe that any concept of god is far more likely to be a figment of human imagination than to actually exist. I consider this a positively evidenced and high confidence albeit tentative position.
anglagard writes:
Which point would you or anyone else like to rationally address, that is, other than the one you have already emoted?
If you want to pursue this it may be better placed here Are Atheists "Philosophically Limited"....?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by anglagard, posted 06-04-2011 1:22 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by anglagard, posted 06-13-2011 6:59 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 160 of 165 (620441)
06-16-2011 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by anglagard
06-13-2011 6:59 PM


Re: Guilty of Heresy in Athiest Court
A writes:
Actually, your comment is my point. Evidence is not proof. That is one reason why I consider this entire line of discussion, as well as the concept of evangelical atheism, ironic to the first degree.
But the "evangelical atheists" (as you call them) such as Dawkins don't claim proof or certainty. Dawkins specifically cites a form of tentative improbability.
A writes:
Yes, according to realism and pragmatism, these are the best arguments for atheism. Are realism and pragmatism proven?
I am not sure what proof has to do with anything here?
A writes:
Is science a subset of philosophy?
It's a demonstrably reliable method of investigation that can lead to high confidence albeit tentative conclusions.
A writes:
And is it not a supreme irony that Dawkins gives Pantheism, Taoism, Deism, and Unitarianism a free pass in chapter 1 of the God Delusion, yet argues against the self-definition of Agnosticism in chapter 2?
I am not sure what exactly you are referring to here. Can you elaborate?
A writes:
Arguing against individuals being allowed to self-describe their belief system seems a bit authoritarian to me.
Did Dawkins do that?
A writes:
If using the term agnostic means atheist-lite, then just reset the Google translator in your brain, don't pretend to become the dictator of the English language. (not meant for you in particular, but rather a more universal disagreement with Dawkins and his followers, in this case).
I think Dawkins is not so much translating "agnostic" into atheist-lite so much as dismissing the notion that atheism refers to some sort of absolute philosophical certainty rather than evidence based tentativity.
A writes:
Pardon me for not including Russell in this discussion as a forefather, but he is the dude who thought all reality could be reduced to logical constructions - that is, until Wittgenstein.
Well as you haven't I will - Russel writes:
quote:
"To my mind the essential thing is that one should base one's arguments upon the kind of grounds that are accepted in science, and one should not regard anything that one accepts as quite certain, but only as probable in a greater or a less degree. Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by anglagard, posted 06-13-2011 6:59 PM anglagard has not replied

  
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