quote:
quicksink:
maybe some enlightened one (the all-faithful creationist) could tell us how many species were on the ark, and explain their reasoning...
John Paul:
You do realize there is a book published that answers your questions. It is called Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study by John Woodmorappe.
He puts the total number of ‘invited’ organisms at 15, 754. 7,428 mammals; 4,602 birds and 3,724 reptiles (including dinosaurs). From what the book states the Hebrew terminology in the Genesis account rules out invertebrates having been taken on the Ark. It goes on to say the same holds true for marine and amphibious vertebrates.
quicksink:
sorry, but that is ridiculous. after the flood, an astonishing rate of evolution would have been required to bring the world to the ecological diversity of today.
John Paul:
Thinking that life can arise from non-life via purely natural processes is ridiculous too. But that isn’t stopping people from looking. Also you must remember that all the niches would be wide open and the Creation account does NOT rely on copying errors (i.e. point mutations) to drive the evolutionary process. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with Dr. Lee Spetner’s book
Not By Chance.
quote:
He talks about the bigger animals taken aboard as juveniles, dwarf species and even as eggs.
quicksink:
contradiction alert!
you said that animals migrated to the ark... eggs did too? and juveniles would take too long to reproduce once off the ark- most species would have to wait in turkey for a while.
John Paul:
What contradiction? Did I say the animals that migrated were the same animals that got on board the Ark? I also stated that Noah could have hired people to collect the animals.
quote:
quote:
quicksink:
then they can tell us how the carnivores were fed
John Paul:
How do people feed their cats & dogs? How are the carnivores fed in a zoo? Could be close to the same way that is done.
quicksink:
with processed meat- not sure they had that during the bronze age.
John Paul:
If you are not sure what Noah had to work with how do you know it couldn’t be done?
quote:
quicksink:
how herbivores were fed (man that's a lot of food)
John Paul:
Ever see how cows, pigs and horses are fed? How are herbivores fed in a zoo? Could be pretty much the same way.
quicksink:
they're fed with hay and other vegetables. These things would have to be on the ship, and that takes a lot of room, not to mention collection.
John Paul:
As shown in the numbers I provided there was plenty of space for the animals, food, water , with space to spare.
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quicksink:
how the boat stayed afloat in waters that could have overturned cruisse ships
John Paul:
Um, it wasn’t a boat. It was a barge shaped Ark. Flat bottomed and rectangular in shape. According to the study that was done in 1994 by Hong et al. and published in Creation Ex Nihlo Technical Journal 8(1): 26-36, the Ark would not flip and was very seaworthy.
quicksink:
ok- could you prove to me that this ark is more stable than a cruise ship?
John Paul:
Hong et al. did exactly that in their study.
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quicksink:
and how insects, like the fig wasp, that live for 3 days and require the fig fruit of the fig tree to reproduce, survived
John Paul:
Please show us the scientific evidence that the fig wasp existed as such before the Flood. Why can’t today’s fig wasp be a descendant of the wasps that survived the Flood? It’s a fig wasp now because it filled that niche that was opened by the Flood and resulting landscape changes.
quicksink:
the fig wasp has been found fossilized, although i'm not goiong to go any further in playing your reference game.
John Paul:
And that means what? Are you saying a fig wasp couldn’t fossilize in the time between the Flood and when it was found?
quicksink:
the fig wasp has special adaptations enabling it to lay eggs in the fig fruit. these adaptations would have taken many thousands of years to develop.
John Paul:
Peer-reviewed reference for that claim please (that the adaptations would take thousands of years to develop).
quicksink:
and the flood occured roughly 4500 years ago.
John Paul:
What if the Flood occurred 9,000 years ago? What is your reference to the Flood occurring roughly 4500 years ago?
quote:
quicksink:
how insects like fruit flies and mosquitos, that reproduce unimaginably quickly, were kept from being a monstrous pest
John Paul:
From the correct reading of Scripture, insects were not invited guests. IOW, they weren’t necessarily on the Ark.
quicksink:
be careful. you're venturing into rough waters-
a) insects would not have suvived the flood
John Paul:
Please provide the peer-reviewed article that would substantiate that claim.
quicksink:
b) many insects, like the dragon fly, live for less than a day. Mating would have been impossible on the high seas, and most insects would have quickly gone extinct.
John Paul:
Perhaps many did go extinct. Please provide the peer-reviewed reference that shows mating would be impossible on the high seas.
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quicksink:
how Noah was able to repopulate the entire planet in 300 years
John Paul:
You do realize the exact date of the Flood is not etched in stone.
quicksink:
you're right- it's etched in the bible. most creationists put the flood at about 4300-4600 years ago, during the height of the americas, egyptians, and chinese. right there you run into troubles.
John Paul:
Please reference the Bible chapter and verse that gives us the date of the Flood. Most Creationists I talk with don’t put the Flood at about 4300-4600 years ago. Also has it ever occurred to you that the alleged Creationists who posit that time period for the Flood could be wrong?
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quicksink:
how he was able to restore all cultures to their pre-flood state
John Paul:
What’s your evidence for that?
quicksink:
for example- the pyramids were built before the flood (please don't play your refernce card again!). i will give you a reference if you like.
John Paul:
Obviously they were built
after the Flood. Or can you give us an absolute for certain date of the Flood? If not you have nothing to reference it against.
quicksink:
the pyramids would not have survived the flood. they would have been eroded and or covered in sediment.
John Paul:
I agree and that is why I infer they were built after the Flood.
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quicksink:
how this small population was able to rebuild all cities
John Paul:
Evidence of that also.
quicksink:
come on. noah and his ancestors would have had to to live in cities. they would have had to rebuild them all over the world.
John Paul:
Eventually yes. And this is part of the evidence that leads me to infer the Flood occurred more than 4600 years ago. BTW no one has to live in cities.
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quicksink:
how noah and other biblical figures were able to live for 100s of yearsa, despite the finding of the contrary after the examination of mummies
the mayan and egyptian pyramids, the buildings of the chinese dynasty, and, from the site
http://www.kidport.com/RefLib/WorldGeography/Greece/Greece.htm" Greece is one of the oldest civilizations, dating back over 5000 years. "
these buildings were dated with a number of methods.
1. carbon dating
2. tree-ring dating
3. ancient records (geneolgy, refernces to lunar eclipses and the like)
all of these corroborate one another. basically, they give roughly the same day.
[quote]
quicksink:
there are more... maybe you could quote me and then answer each question one by one... answer each one... and perhaps you could give a link or two to back up your claims...
John Paul:
The pyramids were dated by tree rings? Wow. How was that done? I’ve climbed Khufu (that’s the biggest of the 3 on the Giza plateau). and didn’t see any trees around. Also the oldest tree is 4400-4600 years old.
John Paul:
Actually all you have to do is read the book I mentioned earlier. Then if you have issues with it at least we will have something to debate.
Here are some of the numbers (from the book) of the Ark’s contents:
Empty Ark- 4,000 tons (all the pens, support beams, etc.); biomass at the start of the Flood- 111 tons; biomass at the end of the Flood- 411 tons; food at the start of the Flood- 2,500 tons; water at the start of the Flood- 4,070 tons. According to the study by Hong et al., the spare mass would be 6,000 tons.
One more thing- I am neither a Christian nor a fundamentalist, yet I am a Creationist. As a matter of fact I know many Muslims, Jewish people, Hindus and Buddhists that are also Creationists. That shoots down one of your claims in another thread (that Creationists were Christians).
quicksink:
so wait, you believe that the bible, which is a christian book, is a historical reference.
John Paul:
First the Genesis account is in the Old Testament which is the Torah for Judaism. Also The split in Muslim/ Judeo-Christian beliefs occurs
after Abraham, so the Genesis account is OK for Muslims too. Also the Bible is a collection of books. If you had done your homework you would have known that.
But yes, I believe the books in the Bible that were meant to be historical accounts are just that.
quicksink:
yet you are not a christian. i believe a non-christian creationist is an oxymoron.
John Paul:
It doesn’t matter to me what you believe, I know better.
quicksink:
and give me some names of non-christian creationists.
John Paul:
Lee Spetner- Jewish and author of
Not By Chance; Harun Yahya is a prominent Turkish Muslim author, who has penned more than 150 books over the last two decades. His main focus has been the refutation of Darwinism and materialism, two modern myths which are imposed to conceal the fact of Creation, a truth both revealed in the Bible and the Koran. Mr. Yahya believes that Christians and Muslims should cooperate in many matters, including the unveiling of the truth about origins. His works have inspired the studies of the unofficial Turkish Science Research Foundation (SRF), to which Science magazine (in its issue of 18 May 2001) refers as one of the world’s strongest anti-evolution movements outside of North America. Harun Yahya lives in Istanbul, Turkey. (taken from the True Origins website).
OK there are two names and you can add mine to that list. If you want more you are going to have to do the research. But it should be obvious that the Genesis account is accepted by Jewish people, Muslims and Christians.
I also work with Hindus and Buddhists who believe the evidence points to a Special Creation. Their disagreement comes with the who or what Created.
Either you are going to read the book I mentioned or not. You are not the first person to have these questions and a Creationist has taken the time to answer them. The choice is yours, remain ignorant or do some research.
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John Paul
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