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Author Topic:   Why are there no human apes alive today?
Portillo
Member (Idle past 2239 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 211 of 1075 (621023)
06-22-2011 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by AZPaul3
06-22-2011 8:47 AM


Re: More evolved?
How about you use arguments instead of immature insults. My understanding is that we evolved from pond scum, hence we must be more evolved than it.

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by AZPaul3, posted 06-22-2011 8:47 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Percy, posted 06-22-2011 7:09 PM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 215 by AZPaul3, posted 06-22-2011 7:35 PM Portillo has not yet responded

Portillo
Member (Idle past 2239 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 212 of 1075 (621024)
06-22-2011 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Larni
06-22-2011 4:50 AM


Re: More evolved?
quote:
What you appear to be missing is that populations of organisms evolve to fit their enviroment.

Therefor, pondscum is far more evolved than we are for surviving in ponds.

Often, people think that evolution is directed with humans as the end point of evolution.

We are very well adapted by evolution for tool use, distance running and selective abstraction but terribly adapted by evolution for flying, or metabolising arsnic.


I understand what you mean that everything is evolved for its own purposes and needs, but how can humans not be more evolved? Does pond scum have science and a civilisation like humans? Humans have dominion over the earth and dare I say, one day we will evolve into Gods.

My point is that there is plenty of evolution in human affairs, more so than pond scum.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Larni, posted 06-22-2011 4:50 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2011 6:55 PM Portillo has responded
 Message 222 by Larni, posted 06-23-2011 4:28 AM Portillo has not yet responded

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1806
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 213 of 1075 (621027)
06-22-2011 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Portillo
06-22-2011 6:49 PM


Re: More evolved?
Does pond scum have science and a civilisation like humans?

Does pond scum need science and civilization? can pond scum thrive and live in it's ecological niche without the crutch of technology?


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Portillo, posted 06-22-2011 6:49 PM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Portillo, posted 06-23-2011 1:01 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 214 of 1075 (621028)
06-22-2011 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Portillo
06-22-2011 6:43 PM


Re: More evolved?
Portillo writes:

My understanding is that we evolved from pond scum, hence we must be more evolved than it.

AZPaul3 could have expressed himself more positively, but what he's saying is correct. That's because we didn't evolve from pond scum. What the evidence indicates is that we and pond scum share a common ancestor that lived some billions of years ago. In the time since that common ancestor both lineages evolved. One evolving lineage led to to pond scum, the other to human beings. Both lineages evolved for equal amounts of time and so both lineages are equally evolved.

There's another sense in which saying "more evolved" is incorrect, and that's when "more evolved" is meant to imply better. All organisms that are well adapted to their environment are equal in terms of evolution.

But there is yet another way of looking at it in which you are correct. If you measure the percent of difference between the common ancestor and pond scum, and also for the common ancestor and human beings, then there would likely be a much greater difference with human beings. But this is not a way that can be quantified since we don't have any DNA from the common ancestor, we can only conjecture that it was much more similar to the DNA of pond scum rather than human beings.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Left a word out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Portillo, posted 06-22-2011 6:43 PM Portillo has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 215 of 1075 (621029)
06-22-2011 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Portillo
06-22-2011 6:43 PM


Re: More evolved?
How about you use arguments instead of immature insults.

What insults?

When someone is looking stu*id you are doing them a favor, a kindness, to let them know.

My understanding is that we evolved from pond scum, hence we must be more evolved than it.

This is the point. Evolution is not some scale of comparison. There is no "evolved more" or "evolved less." There is only "evolved differently."

This is the kind of thing that rings bells in my head. No one who understands (Note I did not say believes) the processes of evolution could ever make such a mistake. This leads inevitably to questions of how much more you do not understand about vectors of mutation, natural selection, genetic drift and a whole slue of other evolution sub-topics.

If for no other reason than your own ego, Portillo, take the time to learn a subject before walking in here unarmed to do battle.

And caution. What you may have heard or read on creationist sites or from creationist books do not give the whole story. A lot of those guys have no idea what they are talking about.

As I said before, I am an atheist and an evolutionist. But I read the bible and the creation sites and Behe's books, just so I am armed on the field of battle.

I strongly suggest you do the same.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

What's with the *** instead of the word stu*id?

Who's idea was this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Portillo, posted 06-22-2011 6:43 PM Portillo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-23-2011 12:39 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2588 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 216 of 1075 (621042)
06-23-2011 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Portillo
06-21-2011 5:24 AM


Protillo writes:

Isnt the Origin of Species called "The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life".
"At some period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace, the savage races throughout the world." - Charles Darwin

And when read in context, as you yourself can do if you just go back to anglagard's Message 186, you'll see that Darwin is hardly advocating or approving of this prediction. And, sadly, he appears to have been correct.

Edited by ZenMonkey, : Misspelled anglagard's name.


Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Portillo, posted 06-21-2011 5:24 AM Portillo has not yet responded

ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2588 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 217 of 1075 (621043)
06-23-2011 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by AZPaul3
06-22-2011 7:35 PM


Re: More evolved?
AZPaul3 writes:

What's with the *** instead of the word stu*id?

Who's idea was this?

Are you self-Moosing?

/off topic


Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by AZPaul3, posted 06-22-2011 7:35 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Portillo
Member (Idle past 2239 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 218 of 1075 (621045)
06-23-2011 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by DrJones*
06-22-2011 6:55 PM


Re: More evolved?
quote:
Does pond scum need science and civilization? can pond scum thrive and live in it's ecological niche without the crutch of technology?

What your saying is that everything evolves according to its own purposes and needs, but surely there are degrees of evolution.

Does pond scum think? Does it have speech, self reflection, self awareness, can it investigate the earth and universe?

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2011 6:55 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by hooah212002, posted 06-23-2011 1:19 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 220 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-23-2011 2:27 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 226 by jar, posted 06-23-2011 9:16 AM Portillo has responded

hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 219 of 1075 (621047)
06-23-2011 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Portillo
06-23-2011 1:01 AM


Re: More evolved?
Start here: Evolution 101, courtesy of Berkeley University.

but surely there are degrees of evolution.

No.

Think of it this way: say you are in the sahara. Are you "more evolved" than the lion that is huntin you down? You are lost at sea with no vessel. Are you "more evolved" than the shark that is hunting you? Even the lowly virus: are you "more evolved" than the AIDS virus?

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Edited by hooah212002, : removed desert reference. danke huntard


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Portillo, posted 06-23-2011 1:01 AM Portillo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Huntard, posted 06-23-2011 6:04 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2588 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 220 of 1075 (621049)
06-23-2011 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Portillo
06-23-2011 1:01 AM


Re: More evolved?
Portillo writes:

Does pond scum think? Does it have speech, self reflection, self awareness, can it investigate the earth and universe?

Probably not, but you're only thinking of these things as important because human beings can do them. (Sorta.) Asserting that this makes human beings "more evolved" in the sense of "better than everyone else" is like asserting that Willie Mays had a much better batting average than Beethoven. Well, yeah, but so what? In terms of evolutionary success as measured by longevity and adaptability, pond scum wins out over human beings by a huge margin.


Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Portillo, posted 06-23-2011 1:01 AM Portillo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by anglagard, posted 06-23-2011 2:53 AM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 221 of 1075 (621051)
06-23-2011 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by ZenMonkey
06-23-2011 2:27 AM


Advice for Portillo
Portillo, a bit of friendly advice.

If you are going to argue with people who understand what the Theory of Evolution actually means, you must learn what it means.

Take hooah212002's advice, see what Berkeley has to say about evolution as per his link.

Otherwise, it will just wind up being a 20 to one, some of those 20 having PhD's in this very subject, many of which have a master's, many of which who have done regardless of paper qualifications (due to personal integrity) what I ask of you, and at least one of which is a library dean.

Otherwise, you just appear foolish, and on the internet that means for all the world to see, forever.

Edited by anglagard, : add those who understand without paper approval


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
ó Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. Itís us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-23-2011 2:27 AM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 222 of 1075 (621053)
06-23-2011 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Portillo
06-22-2011 6:49 PM


Re: More evolved?
There is plenty of evolution in human affairs. But that is not biological evolution, is it.

If I may, what you appear to be doing is suggesting that the more different an organism is from pond scum the more evolved it is. And that the more evolved it is, the better it is.

The thing to remember is that evolution is not about getting better in an absolute sense (like how my sister used to say she was better than me). Evolution is about how well a population of organism can survive long enough to breed in it's environment.

When you say 'humans are more evolved than pond scum' it is like saying my sister is more evolved than I because she is better. What measure of better are you using?

If better means putting men on the moon then you have a point: but better at putting men on the moon is not part of evolution: only being able to survive long eoungh to pass on copies of your genes is important and ponds scum does that really, really well.

Does that make sense?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Portillo, posted 06-22-2011 6:49 PM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 373 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 223 of 1075 (621054)
06-23-2011 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by hooah212002
06-23-2011 1:19 AM


Re: More evolved?
hooah212002 writes:

say you are in the sahara desert. Are you "more evolved" than the lion that is huntin you down?


You do know that lions don't live in deserts, but in savannah grasslands, yes? (just checking )
This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by hooah212002, posted 06-23-2011 1:19 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Wounded King, posted 06-23-2011 6:13 AM Huntard has responded

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2173 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 224 of 1075 (621055)
06-23-2011 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Huntard
06-23-2011 6:04 AM


Lions find a way
There are also lions that live in the desert, specifically in the Namib desert.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Huntard, posted 06-23-2011 6:04 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Huntard, posted 06-23-2011 10:27 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 225 of 1075 (621061)
06-23-2011 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Wounded King
06-22-2011 5:34 AM


Re: Usual Misquote
Sorry Dr A, I don't see how that addresses the point at all, you are excluding morality and civilisation from heritability, while Darwin seems to be explicitly including them.

I agree that taken on its own the quote about "The break between man and his nearest allies" could be interpreted as simply being about lifestyles and cultural behavioural differences, but now this really is quote mining, since the context makes it clear that he considers these lifestyle and cultural behavioural differences to be part and parcel of the heritable traits that are being selected.

You can argue that he was getting at some sort of cultural memetic heritability but I don't see any evidence for it in what he wrote.

And can you tell me what the similar significant non-heritable behavioural and social differences are between the baboons and great apes that Darwin was thinking of?

I think if Darwin thought he had an actual bunch of living intermediate forms walking around he'd have made more of it.

And surely it is so patently obvious that culture depends on upbringing that I don't see you can make anything of him not explicitly mentioning it in this one passage.

I entirely fail to see what relevance you think this has to the discussion.

Well, he thought that every group of humans had been subject to the evolutionary pressures that he thought produced morality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Wounded King, posted 06-22-2011 5:34 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

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