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Author Topic:   Why are there no human apes alive today?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 178 of 1075 (618949)
06-07-2011 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Portillo
06-07-2011 6:29 AM


Are we really apes?
Yes.
Since chimpanzees are more genetically similar to us than they are to gorillas, any classification that includes chimpanzees and gorillas but not us would be willfully artificial.
I'll comment on your quote later; it contains numerous amusing absurdities, and if, by the time I get round to it, there are any left that haven't been mocked by other posters, I'll mock those.

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 Message 172 by Portillo, posted 06-07-2011 6:29 AM Portillo has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 180 of 1075 (618957)
06-07-2011 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by granpa
06-07-2011 8:34 AM


I would prefer you not to give him any clues at this stage. Thank you.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 190 of 1075 (620845)
06-21-2011 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Portillo
06-21-2011 5:24 AM


Isnt the Origin of Species called "The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life".
Yes, by which he meant varieties and species of animals; he never mentioned the various races of humans anywhere in the Origin of Species.
"At some period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace, the savage races throughout the world." - Charles Darwin
And his gloomy prediction was largely correct; but I don't see how you can hold that against him. Why, you yourself must have been right about something once or twice.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 191 of 1075 (620846)
06-21-2011 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Wounded King
06-21-2011 8:51 AM


Re: Usual Misquote
So Darwin clearly seems to be suggesting that there is less of an evolutionary gap between 'the negro or Australian and the gorilla' than between a Caucasian and a gorilla.
Only if he thought that a "civilized state" was a genetic property; and since five seconds' thought would show that it isn't, and Darwin was a genius, it is unlikely that this is what he meant.
It is obvious that Darwin, of all people, knew that the various human races were part of a family tree and not of the "Great Chain of Being".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Wounded King, posted 06-21-2011 8:51 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Wounded King, posted 06-21-2011 12:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 192 of 1075 (620847)
06-21-2011 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Portillo
06-21-2011 5:02 AM


Doesnt evolution say that different races are at different stages of evolution and that the black race is closer related to the apes?
NO.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Mazzy, posted 06-21-2011 2:06 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 203 of 1075 (620971)
06-22-2011 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Mazzy
06-21-2011 2:06 PM


Actually you are incorrect. Some scientists did refer to Aborigines as not being fully human but akin to homo erectus.
Page Not Found
The link you provide does not support your claim nor show me to be incorrect about anything.
Evolution relies heavily on the disappearance of intermediate anything really.
Well, that was nonsense.
Since you don't know anything about evolution, perhaps you should stop trying to lecture other people on it and start asking questions instead.
If other apes were sufficiently equipt to survive, as did the human line, then there is no reason that a representation of the rise to mankind shouldn't be around.
Does the word "niche" mean anything to you?
Neanderthal used to be used as a represntation of mid species. They were represented as such and were good evidence for the transition from ape to man.
Who claimed that?
The representations have changed from ape like to fully human looking in appearance. This revamp was not due to additional fossil finding. It was in response to the Neanderthal genome project.
No.
Therefore one cannot rely on representations as they reflect a bias towards what scientists think any organism would or should have looked like for evolution to be factual.
Golly, you said something true. Yes, artists' impressions are not evidentiary, which is why no-one says that they are.
It would have been better for evolutionists if all the evidence for evolution did not keep on disappearing and some ape man was still about.
No, then dumbass creationists would be asking "why are there still ape-men" just like now they ask "why are there still monkeys". There is no set of circumstances under which creationists will cease to be stupid.
Another interesting twist to the topic is that no other organism has evolved high reasoning and perceptual capability. With all the homology around it is a shame we can't have a conversation with something like an evolved mouse or turtle.
Your point, assuming you have one, is obscure.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 205 of 1075 (620976)
06-22-2011 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Wounded King
06-21-2011 12:04 PM


Re: Usual Misquote
Or alternatively would you care to explain how his statement makes any sense except with Caucasians or his hypothetical 'more civilised state' being further removed from the great apes than were negros or aboriginals?
There is a greater gulf between the lifestyle of a New Yorker and a chimpanzee than between a hunter-gatherer living in a jungle and a chimpanzee; and so if everyone lived like New Yorkers the apparent gap between our species and chimps would appear greater. But if we agree on this, and I presume you do, we have said nothing about genetic differences between the New Yorker and the hunter-gatherer. So I don't see that we should jump to the conclusion than that Darwin was trying to.
Appealing to genetics hardly helps since Darwin didn't actually know any genetics.
I did not "appeal to genetics". I used the word "genetic" --- where Darwin would have used the word "heritable". He knew the difference between genetic and cultural transmission of behavior even if he wouldn't have put it in those terms (which he wouldn't).
You seem to wish to represent Darwin as the sort of infallible genius creationists and IDists often mistakenly claim all evolutionists regard him as.
I don't regard him as infallible; but a genius, yes. And even if he was not, I take it as a general rule that if someone says something which admits of more than one interpretation, the correct interpretation is likely to be the one which makes more sense.
So if you can use your psychic connection to once again tell us what Darwin really meant, instead of what he actually wrote, I'm sure that would help us out a lot.
I think I'll stick with what he actually wrote:
At all times throughout the world tribes have supplanted other tribes; and as morality is one element in their success, the standard of morality and the number of well-endowed men will thus everywhere tend to rise and increase.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Wounded King, posted 06-21-2011 12:04 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Wounded King, posted 06-22-2011 5:34 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 225 of 1075 (621061)
06-23-2011 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Wounded King
06-22-2011 5:34 AM


Re: Usual Misquote
Sorry Dr A, I don't see how that addresses the point at all, you are excluding morality and civilisation from heritability, while Darwin seems to be explicitly including them.
I agree that taken on its own the quote about "The break between man and his nearest allies" could be interpreted as simply being about lifestyles and cultural behavioural differences, but now this really is quote mining, since the context makes it clear that he considers these lifestyle and cultural behavioural differences to be part and parcel of the heritable traits that are being selected.
You can argue that he was getting at some sort of cultural memetic heritability but I don't see any evidence for it in what he wrote.
And can you tell me what the similar significant non-heritable behavioural and social differences are between the baboons and great apes that Darwin was thinking of?
I think if Darwin thought he had an actual bunch of living intermediate forms walking around he'd have made more of it.
And surely it is so patently obvious that culture depends on upbringing that I don't see you can make anything of him not explicitly mentioning it in this one passage.
I entirely fail to see what relevance you think this has to the discussion.
Well, he thought that every group of humans had been subject to the evolutionary pressures that he thought produced morality.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 363 of 1075 (621461)
06-26-2011 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Portillo
06-25-2011 10:42 PM


Re: More evolved?
If the missing link between humans and apes has been found, there would be no need to proclaim it every year.
You might as well say: "If the US had elected a president, there would be no reason to report it every four years". Lots of "links" have been found. They keep being found. This is why their discovery keeps being reported.
As Lloyd Pye says "these are regularly trundled out because mainstream science never actually HAS the missing links they claim to have, so they seem to think that by regular repetition of the claim people will fall asleep at the wheel and assume they actually have something of consequence."
I've got another explanation for why scientists keep reporting discoveries of intermediate forms. It's because they keep discovering intermediate forms.
If they didn't, it would be easy to demonstrate. You could ask to see photographs of them and they wouldn't be able to do this:

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Mazzy, posted 06-26-2011 2:31 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 381 of 1075 (621521)
06-26-2011 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Mazzy
06-26-2011 2:31 PM


Re: More evolved?
Let's not forget that some humans, have some eyebrow ridging eg Australian Aboriginals, and are perfectly human.
The Eregaster (H) shown in your picture is an ape and so is (I).
They did not use floresiensis, thankfully as she is also just an ape, I reckon.
Homo floresiensis - The Australian Museum
Then there are the human Neanderthals from J-M, whose skulls are no different than many Aboriginals today and are just another human.
So, you wish to put your arbitrary line between I and J (something you would have to dispute with most other creationists, who would put it earlier in the sequence).
And yet the difference between I and J is less than the difference between I and A or B. So it seems that according to your arbitrary classification, there are some apes that are more like humans than they are like other apes.
And the existence of intermediate forms like this is always going to screw up creationist attempts at pigeonholing.
Indeed G is meant to be homo erectus. The skull presented in your picture is an ape. However if they would have pictured Turkana Boy he is fully human. Turkana boy is classified as eragaster sometimes. From A-G are simply varieties of apes.
Well, that's hilarious. Apparently you wish to locate the creationists' supposedly unbridgeable gap between ape and human between two individuals so anatomically similar that they are sometimes thought to be the same species.
So what you actually have is a good representation of apes and the sudden appearance of mankind, only missing Turkana Boy, because that would throw the whole graduation thing into disarray for evolutionists. Well done!
It seems that you are trying to tell some lie about Turkana boy, but your incoherence is impeding your mendacity.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 396 of 1075 (621559)
06-26-2011 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by Mazzy
06-26-2011 3:07 PM


Re: More evolved?
It is not so much that evolutionists like to give every variation a new name and call it a different species. What urkes me is that you use this to suggest macroevolution from ape to man.
For example I am saying Turkana Boy is fully human. He may have been taller, his bones may have been a little different. You want to call this Erectus. Fine. There is huge range in sapiens we call these races, as opposed to species. Yet the bottom line is Turkana Boy is human.
And yet you (you hypocrite) wish to class KNM-ER 3733 and Turkana boy into different kinds. Yet you complain when scientists divide more disparate specimens into different species. It seems that your objection is that they do on a rational and systematic basis what you do on a capricious and arbitrary basis.
It should not be hard to follow that evolutionists suggest an intermediate between mankind and ape. So we need a half hairy guy, unless you are suggesting apes lost all their long hair overnight. Where is he? So far all your researchers have produced are apes or humans.
You see all those fossils that are intermediate in form between basal apes and modern humans? Those are intermediate forms.
I suggest the speculation that all these hairy intermediates died off because they could not compete does not explain why some of them aren't still as they were supposedly 2mya.
And yet it is a fact that they are extinct, even if you can't understand why. This is why we have fossils of them but they aren't still alive. There is, clearly, some reason why australopithecines are extinct, 'cos of them all being ... y'know ... dead. If you don't like the explanations provided, you are free to think up your own.
We thought we had an ape man with Yeti ...
Speak for yourself.
In the end we will weigh the research up and come to our own speculations.
I was planning to come to well-evidenced conclusions. You must do as you see fit.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 447 of 1075 (622149)
07-01-2011 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by Mazzy
06-30-2011 3:57 PM


Mazzy, post #375 writes:
It is not so much that evolutionists like to give every variation a new name and call it a different species. What urkes me is that you use this to suggest macroevolution from ape to man.
Mazzy, post #431 writes:
Evos have lumped them all together, as they do, while clearly there is huge difference between the varous erectus skull types. It is all woffle and desperation in an attempt to make the link from mankind to ape.
Would it be too much to ask for you to introduce a little more consistency into your paranoid fantasies?

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 449 of 1075 (622151)
07-01-2011 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 448 by Percy
07-01-2011 7:54 AM


Re: More evolved?
Every species has unique qualities that differentiate it from other species. The human brain is one of the qualities that makes humans unique
Humans are grouped with other apes because of the qualities they share as a group, such as large brains, taillessness, structure of the hands and feet, lengthy adolescent period, and no particular breeding season. They're also grouped together because genetic analysis reveals that their DNA is more similar to each other than to any other life.
If you read back through the series of posts, he's not asking about extant apes but about our ape-man ancestors. What he wants to know is to what extent the intermediate forms displayed the intellectual traits pre-eminent in modern humans.
To some extent want must be his master, since traits such as "conscience" are hardly likely to fossilize.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 493 of 1075 (622248)
07-01-2011 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Mazzy
07-01-2011 4:55 PM


Simply this...I do not have the time to waste on educating evolutionists in the science they purport to understand and defend.
Fortunately, apart from the comedy value, we are in no need of lecturing by someone who thinks that Homo erectus is "a variety of gorilla".
I will engraciate you this time.
You'll do what now?
One example is Heidelberg man. Only a jaw was found.[
Don't you ever tell the truth?
"There are a number of clear trends (which were neither continuous nor uniform) from early australopithecines to recent humans: increasing brain size, increasing body size, increasing use of and sophistication in tools, decreasing tooth size, decreasing skeletal robustness. There are no clear dividing lines between some of the later gracile australopithecines and some of the early Homo, between erectus and archaic sapiens, or archaic sapiens and modern sapiens.
Despite this, there is little consensus on what our family tree is. Everyone accepts that the robust australopithecines (aethiopicus, robustus and boisei) are not ancestral to us, being a side branch that left no descendants. Whether H. habilis is descended from A. afarensis, africanus, both of them, or neither of them, is still a matter of debate. It is possible that none of the known australopithecines is our ancestor. "
As this is true, I have no idea what you seek to gain by quoting it.
TOE is a theory in evolution itself and has not predictive capability, is irrefuteable and should never be classed as anything more than a faith with wish lists as its basis.
You inadvertently told the truth when you said that it was irrefutable. I believe you meant to pretend that it was unfalsifiable, which would be a lie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Mazzy, posted 07-01-2011 4:55 PM Mazzy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Mazzy, posted 07-01-2011 11:21 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 501 of 1075 (622269)
07-02-2011 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by Mazzy
07-01-2011 11:21 PM


So here you are as bold as brass with big words.
The skull pictured is an darn ape. Homo erectus are mostly apes.
The skull pictured is H. heidelbergensis, the species which you pretended was evidenced only by a jaw.
You lot have heaped a bunch of totally different looking specimens into a bunch.
And yet we distinguish between H. erectus and H. heidelbergensis, which you appear to have confused.
It is rubbish. You can call it what you want, it is not human, nor on its' way to being human and neither are any homo erectus, or Ardi or Lucy. They are apes.
Whereas the creationists over at AnswersInGenesis insist that H. heidelbergensis and H. erectus are both "racial variants of modern man".
So what we have here are species which some creationists, such as yourself, insist "are apes", "are not human" and "not on [their] way to being human"; and which other creationists, such as AiG, insist are varients of modern man.
Which is just what one would expect if (a) they are intermediate forms (b) creationists are a bunch of blatherskites desperate to pigeonhole them one way or the other but with no rational basis for doing so.
I was not the dope that contested partial fossils and sinlge bones as being offered up for evidence of these species. You were.
That was so incoherent that it is hard to determine what lie you are trying to tell. Would you like to try again?
Your *** totally unrelated retaliation does not hide ignorance.
I guess my imaginary actions do not hide my imaginary qualities; so you may be inadvertently telling the truth again. Never mind, I'm sure you can make up for it in subsequent posts.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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