Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


(1)
Message 16 of 192 (621202)
06-24-2011 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by zi ko
06-21-2011 12:47 PM


This argument was pretty much refuted in your previous (though still active) New theory about evolution between creationism and evolution. thread. How is starting another thread saying the same thing going to advance your position?
What you have is a solution without a problem. First you have to make the case that current scientific theories are inadequate to explain the specific phenomenon of heritable change over time, as well as the phenomena of material change in general. You have not done this. Even had you done so, you still haven't described a credible mechanism for how any of this informational transfer actually works. Simply saying that it could work that way is not the same thing as providing evidence that it does.

Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric
Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by zi ko, posted 06-21-2011 12:47 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 10:33 AM ZenMonkey has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 17 of 192 (621206)
06-24-2011 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by zi ko
06-24-2011 8:50 AM


I find it ironic that you task me with not simply making baseless assertions when you baselessly assert that 'recent scientic findings' supports your hypothesis.
You have yet to explain in your own words how watching something not get killed affects allele frequency.
Until you do people will laugh and point at you assuming you are thick and slow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by zi ko, posted 06-24-2011 8:50 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 9:26 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 18 of 192 (621207)
06-24-2011 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by zi ko
06-24-2011 9:43 AM


No such word as perigenome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by zi ko, posted 06-24-2011 9:43 AM zi ko has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 192 (621249)
06-24-2011 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by zi ko
06-24-2011 9:43 AM


Epigenetics had proved that information has effect on perigenome area.
How so?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by zi ko, posted 06-24-2011 9:43 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 9:52 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 20 of 192 (621253)
06-24-2011 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by zi ko
06-24-2011 9:43 AM


Think what the effect would be if the same type of information comes again and again over manny, maybe million, of generations by empathy.
How is "information" conveyed by "empathy?" How does this work inter-generationally?
All your other vectors of "information" transfer can be simply restated as chemical response to stimuli. Nothing new there.
But this "empathy" bit is not at all clear to me.
Explain this please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by zi ko, posted 06-24-2011 9:43 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 9:40 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 21 of 192 (621358)
06-25-2011 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Larni
06-24-2011 1:06 PM


find it ironic that you task me with not simply making baseless assertions when you baselessly assert that 'recent scientic findings' supports your hypothesis.
You have yet to explain in your own words how watching something not get killed affects allele frequency.
Until you do people will laugh and point at you assuming you are thick and slow.
I suppose you mean:If a member of species is watching another member being in danger of being killed by a predator but finally not being killed, how his allele frequency is affected. Am i wright.?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Larni, posted 06-24-2011 1:06 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Larni, posted 06-25-2011 10:19 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 22 of 192 (621360)
06-25-2011 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by AZPaul3
06-24-2011 4:34 PM


How is "information" conveyed by "empathy?" How does this work inter-generationally?
All your other vectors of "information" transfer can be simply restated as chemical response to stimuli. Nothing new there.
But this "empathy" bit is not at all clear to me.
Explain this please.
From my Neuro-genc theory:
Empathy
From the number of scientific works on the matter we can conclude that we are at the beginnings of a road that promises a lot. Empathy was long ago known to happen, especially between mother and offspring, but new light is put on it now. Mirror neurons finding substantiates its significance. There is quite a number of works about empathy evolution, but not any on empathy’s role on evolution. In any case nobody up to now had thought that it could have any such importance to evolution, so not any research had been done and its significance has yet to be proved. But it will be of no surprise to me, if these mirror cells would be found in lower animals as well.
According to my theory empathy applies to any living organism with neural system or not, from lower to the higher ones. (To those with no neural tissue its role is served by chemicals and hormones). In higher animals, with formed neural system, it is the basic mechanism that transfers emotional knowledge to genome, through generations. This knowledge starts as simple information coming from environment, is modified properly inside neural system,( eg. is being colored by emotion, if t has survival value for organism), and it ends up to genome, in a repeated fashion, where it has permanent effect. I suspect that this coloring is what mainly is transmitted by empathy. This repeated act over long periods on the same part on DNA, has as an end result, (apart from the early energizing appropriate natural genetic engineering systems, or through this mechanism), to cause more drastic and somehow directed mutations As this affect is exercised over a wide number of subjects of species at about the same time, we have wide spread population genetic changes of similar nature. So there are following phenotype or genotype changes, not only to individuals but also to wide populations, which are later subjected to natural selection.
The main question here is: On which grounds can we accept that empathy can have permanent effect on genome?
My answer is:
Empathy is a type of knowledge transfer. We have seen before, that knowledge can have an effect on genome (maybe not permanent) during life span. As empathy works on the same kind of subjects over long periods, maybe millions of years (this is the main new idea that my theory introduces) and not only during short life span, I think, is logical to say that it can have such effect.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2011 4:34 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 06-25-2011 7:09 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 23 of 192 (621361)
06-25-2011 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by New Cat's Eye
06-24-2011 4:11 PM


From Wikpedia:
"act the first and Molecular basis of epigenetics
The molecular basis of epigenetics is complex. It involves modifications of the activation of certain genes, but not the basic structure of DNA. Additionally, the chromatin proteins associated with DNA may be activated or silenced. This accounts for why the differentiated cells in a multi-cellular organism express only the genes that are necessary for their own activity. Epigenetic changes are preserved when cells divide. Most epigenetic changes only occur within the course of one individual organism's lifetime, but, if a mutation in the DNA has been caused in sperm or egg cell that results in fertilization, then some epigenetic changes are inherited from one generation to the next.[9] This raises the question of whether or not epigenetic changes in an organism can alter the basic structure of its DNA (see Evolution, below), a form
of Lamarckism"
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-24-2011 4:11 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 24 of 192 (621362)
06-25-2011 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by zi ko
06-25-2011 9:26 AM


You're right.
Please explain in your own words.
This knowledge starts as simple information coming from environment, is modified properly inside neural system,( eg. is being colored by emotion, if t has survival value for organism), and it ends up to genome, in a repeated fashion, where it has permanent effect. I suspect that this coloring is what mainly is transmitted by empathy.
I need to take issue with you here as my field is cognitive psychology.
Emotion does not 'colour thoughts'. Core beliefs assign valency to thoughts; but not emotion.
Empathy is the ability to understand another persons emotional state: nothing more.
Edited by Larni, : Psychology bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 9:26 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 9:52 AM Larni has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 25 of 192 (621363)
06-25-2011 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by ZenMonkey
06-24-2011 12:41 PM


What you have is a solution without a problem. First you have to make the case that current scientific theories are inadequate to explain the specific phenomenon of heritable change over time, as well as the phenomena of material change in general. You have not done this. Even had you done so, you still haven't described a credible mechanism for how any of this informational transfer actually works. Simply saying that it could work that way is not the same thing as providing evidence that it does.
Surely there is a problem. Isuggest an exellent article by James A Shapiro , The Third Way.
I quote
"Unfortunately, readers of Boston Review may remain unaware of this intellectual ferment because the debate about evolution continues to assume the quality of an abstract and philosophical "dialogue of the deaf" between Creationists and Darwinists. Although our knowledge of the molecular details of biological organization is undergoing a revolutionary expansion, open-minded discussions of the impact of these discoveries are all too rare. The possibility of a non-Darwinian, scientific theory of evolution is virtually never considered. In my comments, then, I propose to sketch some developments in contemporary life science that suggest shortcomings in orthodox evolutionary theory and open the door to very different ways of formulating questions about the evolutionary process. After a discussion of technical advances in our views about genome organization and the mechanisms of genetic change, I will focus on a growing convergence between biology and information science which offers the potential for scientific investigation of possible intelligent cellular action in evolution"
Edited by Admin, : Add the missing close quote.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-24-2011 12:41 PM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Larni, posted 06-25-2011 11:03 AM zi ko has not replied
 Message 27 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-25-2011 12:42 PM zi ko has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 26 of 192 (621365)
06-25-2011 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by zi ko
06-25-2011 10:33 AM


The possibility of a non-Darwinian, scientific theory of evolution is virtually never considered.
Your Mr Shapiro seems not to have heard of prions, then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 10:33 AM zi ko has not replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 27 of 192 (621372)
06-25-2011 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by zi ko
06-25-2011 10:33 AM


You're referring to this article in The Boston Review. I certainly don't know enough biochemistry or genetics to determine whether or not his claims have merit, nor can I tell exactly how they relate to your own hypothesis. I leave it to others with more knowledge to make an assessment.

Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric
Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 10:33 AM zi ko has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 28 of 192 (621415)
06-25-2011 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by zi ko
06-25-2011 9:40 AM


Empathy Transfer
Let me use the example of a cat.
This knowledge starts as simple information coming from environment ...
What types of information are you talking about? Temperature, moisture, odor, sight, sound? What sense organs are involved in perceiving this information?
You start with information in the environment and then go to the statement below. You leave out the most basic process of how this information gets into the body of the cat. If not already in a biochemical form from the cat's sense organs then by what mechanism does the "information" manifest within the cat tissue and specifically which cat tissues?
is modified properly inside neural system,( eg. is being colored by emotion, if t has survival value for organism) ...
Modified how? If biochemical then how are you suggesting this information is changed? Are transfer proteins formed (how?, where?) and then are re-folded or have more amino acids added or deleted (by what? how? when? where?)?
How would the cell know if this "information" has survival value?
I'm assuming the information is in the form of some chemical "stuff" (proteins?). What attributes of this "stuff" would convey "beneficial" vs "harmful"? How would the cats neuron or mirror cell identify the difference?
and it ends up to genome, in a repeated fashion, where it has permanent effect.
What genome? The genome in the sensing neuron? The "mirror" cell? Some other cell (where?)
Can you take one piece of "information" whether that be some sight, sound, tactile etc., and walk us through the process of how the information gets into the cat (by what manifestation does it appear in the cat tissue), how it would be modified and what would this end product look like and what would it do to alter the nucleic acids in the genome? How would it know which chromosome, which gene and which base-pairs to alter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 9:40 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 9:22 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 29 of 192 (621444)
06-25-2011 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Taq
06-24-2011 11:27 AM


Your link appears to be broken. Nonetheless, could you explain here how your theory can be used to analyze sequence data? Could you compare two homologous sequences from two species and show us how your theory can be used to measure the information in each sequence caused by neurogenic interactions?
I am sorry. The link is http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com.Your questions overrun my knowledge and abilitiy. In any case relative research is not existent. We might have to go to bacteria to see the basic interactions between cell-environment, where engineering systems are , i think, the precursories of neural tissue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Taq, posted 06-24-2011 11:27 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Taq, posted 06-27-2011 4:45 PM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 30 of 192 (621473)
06-26-2011 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by AZPaul3
06-25-2011 7:09 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
Let me use the example of a cat.
What types of information are you talking about? Temperature, moisture, odor, sight, sound? What sense organs are involved in perceiving this information?
You start with information in the environment and then go to the statement below. You leave out the most basic process of how this information gets into the body of the cat. If not already in a biochemical form from the cat's sense organs then by what mechanism does the "information" manifest within the cat tissue and specifically which cat tissues?
All types of information and all sense organs. It gets through neural system in a biochemical form and to all cat tissues, as it is known from neural system function.
Modified how? If biochemical then how are you suggesting this information is changed? Are transfer proteins formed (how?, where?) and then are re-folded or have more amino acids added or deleted (by what? how? when? where?)?
All above functions and questions are well known to neorobiology and i am not the most appropriate person to give the answers
How would the cell know if this "information" has survival value?
From the grade of the shock is sensinsig.
I'm assuming the information is in the form of some chemical "stuff" (proteins?). What attributes of this "stuff" would convey "beneficial" vs "harmful"? How would the cats neuron or mirror cell identify the difference?
The answer is the same as the previous before. I dont think that Nerobiologists have all the answers yet. But they, i am sure, are working on these problems.
What genome? The genome in the sensing neuron? The "mirror" cell? Some other cell (where?)
Finally, if the offence very serious and repetitvely, the gametes.
Can you take one piece of "information" whether that be some sight, sound, tactile etc., and walk us through the process of how the information gets into the cat (by what manifestation does it appear in the cat tissue), how it would be modified and what would this end product look like and what would it do to alter the nucleic acids in the genome? How would it know which chromosome, which gene and which base-pairs to alter?
What i am proposing to is just a theory, a hypothesis if you like, and all above yoy ask are to complicated to be answered even by special scientist. In any case the idea neural tissue interference with genome is entirely a new one and not any work has been done.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 06-25-2011 7:09 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 06-26-2011 10:22 AM zi ko has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024