Man or animal?

How do you know that anything does or does not have
a soul?What is your evidence for this phenomenon?The indigenous peoples of north america believe that everything
has a spirit (manitou) -- even your computer or a rock in your
garden.Just becuase one belief system says otherwise doesn't make it
right -- unless you can support the assertion sufficiently.

This is a reply to Messenja, but I think it's a pertenent point to make. Now, did it ever occure to you that maybe animals don't think the SAME WAY we do. Why would a chimp need a car? A dolphin an Airplane? And why would you expect any animal to understand you, speak the way you do, have the same intrests or concerns you do?It's entirely possible, and infact easely observable, that social animals like Dogs and monkeys have incredibly complex iner lives. These animals spend their days invested in what concerns them. A dog for example speaks in the language of smell, he can "see" smell in 3D. Every scent has a meaning to a dog, and likewise dogs comunicate thrugh it.How could we ever hope to perceive the world in the same way as a dog? It dosn't mean the dog is dumb because he dosn't speak human, the dog is concerned with dog things, his world is a dogs world, and his perception is a dogs persception.Birds are another great example, again they have complex languages, and social lives, and their world is percived on entirely diffrent levels. A bird can sense the electromagnitizim of the earth to navigate by, he has to be able to have a 4D perception of space at any given time to be able to fly acurately. His calls must be distinct so as to be able to comunicate over vast distances He is not human, he is a bird. It dosn't make him dumb, his world is that of a bird. Could you be a btter bird?That's my opinion anyway.[This message has been edited by Yaro, 10-15-2003]

Good point. The extra senses of animals can be very impressive. There's also sound navigation (dolphins, bats) which not only lets you see in hard to see environments, but also see inside objects. Being able to see inside of us, dolphins seem to be able to recognize humans as fellow mammals, and treat us differently than most other things in the water. They also are observed to pay extra attention to women who are pregnant.Some animals can see the polarization of light. Light not only has frequency and intensity, but polarization as well. Polarization can reflect the chemical properties of the minerals that it is emitted/reflected from in different ways than frequency. Light that passes through things that are "transparent" often changes polarization - sometimes rotating it, sometimes setting it equal to a certain direction, etc. Certain chemicals filter out light of certain polarizations - it is a whole new dimension to vision.Of course, there's infared and ultraviolet vision; infrasound and ultrasound perception; many new dimensions to hearing, smell, and touch; etc. Elephants can pick up infrasound sound through their feet, and communicate over distances of miles with it.Some animals, such as sharks, have an electrical sense. It is so sensitive that they can pick up the electromagnetic field from the firing of individual neurons of animals beneath the sand.Of course, my key point is the fact that, up to a point, chimpanzees are quite similar to children on a learning curve. Then they just steadily drop off. It's not that far of a stretch to see how they could continue on, with slight genetic differences, to our level of learning - the level that has allowed things like flight and evcforum. ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

What definition of "Superior" are we all going by here?
1. Higher than another in rank, station, or authority: a superior officer.
2. Of a higher nature or kind.
3. Of great value or excellence; extraordinary.
4. Greater in number or amount than another: an army defeated by superior numbers of enemy troops.
5. Affecting an attitude of disdain or conceit; haughty and supercilious.
6. Above being affected or influenced; indifferent or immune: Trust magnates were superior to law (Gustavus Myers).
7. Located higher than another; upper.
8. Botany. Inserted or situated above the perianth. Used of an ovary.
9. Printing. Set above the main line of type.
10. Logic. Of wider or more comprehensive application; generic. Used of a term or proposition. Superior Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
10 Different ones here... hmm...
I don't really know what my opinion is now.

I think you missed the main point being made.Chimps, for example, drop-off of a human learning curve,
but that does not mean they are less intelligent -- only that
the things in life that are important to them do not
include the kind of learning that we do.We only have a vague inkling (sp?) of what human intelligence
is so how can we presume to make assessments of the
intelligence of other creatures.We can contrast their intelligence to human abilities ... but then
that's just like saying a beetle is better because it can
fly unaided.And again ... why pick on intelligence as a superiority defining
feature?We don't even know the purpose of bird-song or of dolphin/whale
song .... maybe that means it's a language too complex for us
... and maybe that means birds and dolphins are more intelligent
than us ...

Superior can just mean 'above' or 'over'
(as in the botanical definition and several anatomy
usages -- anterior and superior crop up a lot).I think the question for this thread has shifted, though,
if we are talking superiority (I have done this too btw
not blaming anyone).The question was is there a genuine/objective distinction
between humans and other animals (phrasing there tells you my
opinion hopefully ) ... superiority is necessarily subjective
as it relies on a value judgement based around a selected
set of criterion.

Additionally, if the only way one can attempt to set mankind apart from other species is through our superiority (in one, or a thousand categories) I don't think it can be done. For any given quality that a species may possess, there is a continuum throughout the animal kingdom. Man may be at the top end in some qualities, but all this can establish is a quantitative superiority. What this thread seeks is a qualitative difference.

....yes ... that's more or less what I was trying to say It's kind of a 'What if anything makes humans significantly
different to the rest of the animal kingdom?'

Bill Hicks: "we are a virus with shoes."

Messenjah, OK, enough of this, what you were supposed to take from our little tete-a-tete, was that rating one organism as being "superior" to another is entirely subjective, depending entirely on the criteria that you use.Your argument boils down to, it's obvious, open your eyes. You are DEMONSTRABLY inferior to beetles, based on the ability to fly without aid, lay a bazillion eggs, in limb number, etc etc.. It's subjective, right? Open your eyes.Mark------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."

Neat .... it's what I have always suspected
clothes maketh the man