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Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 31 of 192 (621477)
06-26-2011 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Larni
06-25-2011 10:19 AM


You're right.
Please explain in your own words.
If antilope is killed or not the watching antilope through empathy feels the threat. If scene is repeated this danger knowledge is transferred through empathy to the siblings and other members, where is being through experience and again empathy reinforced and so on. After many generations this knowlwdge coloured by fear acts on the genome for the appropriate change.
I need to take issue with you here as my field is cognitive psychology.
Emotion does not 'colour thoughts'. Core beliefs assign valency to thoughts; but not emotion.
Empathy is the ability to understand another persons emotional state: nothing more.
I didnt say thoughts, i said information.I say the same about empathy, as a start.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Larni, posted 06-25-2011 10:19 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Larni, posted 06-26-2011 10:32 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 38 by Meddle, posted 06-26-2011 9:42 PM zi ko has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 32 of 192 (621482)
06-26-2011 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by zi ko
06-26-2011 9:22 AM


Re: Empathy Transfer
What i am proposing to is just a theory, a hypothesis if you like, and all above yoy ask are to complicated to be answered even by special scientist.
Sorry, zi ko, this is just evasion. If you have a "theory" or even a "hypothesis" then you must be able to answer these questions. To not do so indicates you are presenting nothing more than your personal subjective speculations. I am hoping for more. If you have none then you seem to have nothing.
Edited by AZPaul3, : edit ... duh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 9:22 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 2:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 33 of 192 (621484)
06-26-2011 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by zi ko
06-26-2011 9:52 AM


The empathy felt allows the organism to understand what the observed organism is going through.
You need to establish that empathy can then go on to affect the alleles. You have yet to do so.
Until you can do that (in your own words) you are left pissing in the wind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 9:52 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 2:56 PM Larni has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 34 of 192 (621508)
06-26-2011 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by AZPaul3
06-26-2011 10:22 AM


Re: Empathy Transfer
Sorry, zi ko, this is just evasion. If you have a "theory" or even a "hypothesis" then you must be able to answer these questions. To not do so indicates you are presenting nothing more than your personal subjective speculations. I am hoping for more. If you have none then you seem to have nothing.
You ask more it is needed. I quote from Wikipedia:
"All scientific knowledge and theories are based on two things: observation and consistent logic. A theory is a logical explanation for observations. A good, scientific theory also proposes a set of new observations that could test a theory's power to explain. Once technology, time or funding catches up with the theory, these observations can be made, which can either support or invalidate the theory. This ability to be tested, and the potential for the theory to be invalided by the experiment, is the essence of falsifiability.[/qs]
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 06-26-2011 10:22 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 06-26-2011 6:33 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 35 of 192 (621509)
06-26-2011 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Larni
06-26-2011 10:32 AM


The empathy felt allows the organism to understand what the observed organism is going through.
You need to establish that empathy can then go on to affect the alleles. You have yet to do so.
Until you can do that (in your own words) you are left pissing in the wind.
Establishing or not it is to come from other scientists, other than me surely.This is the procedure and essense of falsifiability.
i quote from Wikipedia:
All scientific knowledge and theories are based on two things: observation and consistent logic. A theory is a logical explanation for observations. A good, scientific theory also proposes a set of new observations that could test a theory's power to explain. Once technology, time or funding catches up with the theory, these observations can be made, which can either support or invalidate the theory. This ability to be tested, and the potential for the theory to be invalided by the experiment, is the essence of falsifiability.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Larni, posted 06-26-2011 10:32 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Larni, posted 06-26-2011 3:21 PM zi ko has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 36 of 192 (621512)
06-26-2011 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by zi ko
06-26-2011 2:56 PM


Establishing or not it is to come from other scientists, other than me surely.This the procedure of falsifiability.
Ha ha. You idiot.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 37 of 192 (621525)
06-26-2011 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by zi ko
06-26-2011 2:44 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
I have to agree with Larni an this one. You do not know what science or the scientific method are.
You have an idea. That is all. You have no observations upon which to base this idea. You have no proposed mechanism to tested now or in the future.
To say that
"information unspecified as to type, character or form gets into the body by some unknown means and is changed by some unknown mechanism into something else as yet unspecified based upon an emotion then some unknown mechanism somehow recognises this information as 'benficial' and somehow gets it to the genome and in some undescribed way can alter the base pairs of a somehow specifically targetted gene"
is not any type of theory or hypothesis germain to the quote you give and warrents no further consideration by any researchers.
If you want to present this idea with any efficacy at all you need to fill in the holes with a clear chain of observations from specific defined "information" through to observed results giving at each step some proposed mechanisms.
Until then, zi ko, you have nothing to offer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 2:44 PM zi ko has replied

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Meddle
Member (Idle past 1270 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 38 of 192 (621551)
06-26-2011 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by zi ko
06-26-2011 9:52 AM


After many generations this knowlwdge coloured by fear acts on the genome for the appropriate change.
This is what I've been wondering about since you first proposed your suggestion (sorry, at this stage it doesn't even seem to be a hypothesis), just when about does this empathy kick in to influence evolution? After all antelope still die.
Now consider cystic fibrosis as another example. At my work some of the patients we monitor with CF have one or two other siblings with this genetic disorder. So here we have examples of mothers giving birth to multiple children with CF despite having experience of what this disorder can do. Conversely it has been calculated that the most common mutant allele that causes CF originated some 52,000 years ago. Can you explain this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 9:52 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 39 of 192 (621616)
06-27-2011 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by AZPaul3
06-26-2011 6:33 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
You have an idea. That is all. You have no observations upon which to base this idea. You have no proposed mechanism to tested now or in the future.
To say that
"information unspecified as to type, character or form gets into the body by some unknown means and is changed by some unknown mechanism into something else as yet unspecified based upon an emotion then some unknown mechanism somehow recognises this information as 'benficial' and somehow gets it to the genome and in some undescribed way can alter the base pairs of a somehow specifically targetted gene"
is not any type of theory or hypothesis germain to the quote you give and warrents no further consideration by any researchers.
If you want to present this idea with any efficacy at all you need to fill in the holes with a clear chain of observations from specific defined "information" through to observed results giving at each step some proposed mechanisms.Until then, zi ko, you have nothing to offer.
You can call it an idea. But remember it is part of the comprehensive theory of Neuro-genic evolution.(http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com)
Information role on evolution and its mechanisms is already established by innumerable works on epigenetics and those by Shapiro, B. Wright. Dobshansky , Weismann, father of Ms theory and Darwin himself had aknowledged its significance.So sadly enough your critic is adressed to them and many others as well, not exactly to me.
My new ideas are the "thinking neural system" and empathy role on evolution
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 06-26-2011 6:33 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-27-2011 12:22 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 43 by Larni, posted 06-27-2011 1:15 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 46 by Taq, posted 06-27-2011 4:49 PM zi ko has replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 40 of 192 (621620)
06-27-2011 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by zi ko
06-27-2011 12:06 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
zi ko writes:
My new ideas are the "thinking neural system" and empathy role on evolution
And since the overwhelming majority of life on this planet, past and present, has evolved and flourished without anything like a nervous system or neural network of any kind, your conjecture has dropped dead before leaving the starting gate. This horse is dead no matter how hard you beat it.

Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric
Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by zi ko, posted 06-27-2011 12:06 PM zi ko has replied

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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 41 of 192 (621622)
06-27-2011 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Meddle
06-26-2011 9:42 PM


Sorry. There some confusion here becouse of a proposed theory of neuro-genik evolution (http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com) by me on another thread.
Empathy is atype of information. It follows the same paths as information does. And the same mechanism.
It starts functioning as the organism has neural tissue.
The antilope may dy, but the watchinf other members of family or tribe.
The CF example has nothing to do with my theory.I dont deny mutations not either natural selection. These cases are explained as before.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 06-27-2011 4:50 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 42 of 192 (621624)
06-27-2011 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Meddle
06-26-2011 9:42 PM


Sorry. There some confusion here becouse of a proposed theory of neuro-genc evolution (http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com) by me on another thread.
Empathy is a type of information. It follows the same paths as information does. And the same mechanism.
It starts functioning as the organism gets neural tissue.
The antilope may die, but the watching other members of family or tribe still live and they transfer the information by empathy.
The CF example has nothing to do with my theory.I dont deny mutations not either natural selection. These cases are explained as before.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Meddle, posted 06-26-2011 9:42 PM Meddle has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 43 of 192 (621625)
06-27-2011 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by zi ko
06-27-2011 12:06 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
You can call it an idea. But remember it is part of the comprehensive theory of Neuro-genic evolution.(http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com)
Objection, m'lud: it's not a theory, it is a unsubstantiated hypothesis, at best.
Sustained: the counsel will not refer to an unsubstantiated, at best hypothesis as a theory.
Carry on.
My new ideas are the "thinking neural system" and empathy role on evolution.
Empathy is atype of information. It follows the same paths as information does. And the same mechanism.
No, no, no! Bad crank! You've been told what empathy is by me on this very thread. Wat hing some one smile will not affect your genes.
And they are unsubstantiated, sigh.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by zi ko, posted 06-27-2011 12:06 PM zi ko has replied

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 44 of 192 (621631)
06-27-2011 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by zi ko
06-27-2011 12:50 PM


Empathy is a type of information. It follows the same paths as information does. And the same mechanism.
It starts functioning as the organism gets neural tissue.
The antilope may die, but the watching other members of family or tribe still live and they transfer the information by empathy.
The CF example has nothing to do with my theory.I dont deny mutations not either natural selection. These cases are explained as before.
Show me a print out of the amount of information transferred in this way as read by an information detector.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 45 of 192 (621641)
06-27-2011 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by zi ko
06-25-2011 11:37 PM


We might have to go to bacteria to see the basic interactions between cell-environment, where engineering systems are , i think, the precursories of neural tissue.
Then please do. Please cite mechanisms by which specific stimuli result in specific mutations, and only those mutations.
From everything I have read, mutations that occur in bacteria are random with respect to fitness. For example, mutations which confer antibiotic and phage resistance occur in the absence of either antibiotics or phage. This is the findings made by Luria and Delbruck as well as the Lederbergs (google "fluctuation experiment mutations" and "plate replica experiment" for more info). It's not as if bacteria sense antibiotics in the environment and then make specific mutations in specific genes to counteract the bactericidal activity of antibiotics. Mutations occur throughout the genome, most of which do not confer resistance to antibiotics.

This message is a reply to:
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