Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8896 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-22-2019 8:41 PM
102 online now:
AZPaul3, DrJones* (2 members, 100 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,560 Year: 3,597/19,786 Month: 592/1,087 Week: 182/212 Day: 24/25 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123
4
56
...
13Next
Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 46 of 192 (621642)
06-27-2011 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by zi ko
06-27-2011 12:06 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
You can call it an idea. But remember it is part of the comprehensive theory of Neuro-genic evolution.

So how does your theory explain detrimental mutations, such as those that cause horrifically painful diseases in young children that then lead to their early death?

Information role on evolution and its mechanisms is already established by innumerable works on epigenetics and those by Shapiro, B. Wright. Dobshansky , Weismann, father of Ms theory and Darwin himself had aknowledged its significance.So sadly enough your critic is adressed to them and many others as well, not exactly to me.

Epigenetics does not change the genomic sequence, and the mutations that Shapiro et al. speak of are random with respect to fitness. If you think I am wrong, then please cite a paper that demonstrates that mutations are not random with respect to fitness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by zi ko, posted 06-27-2011 12:06 PM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 9:44 AM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 47 of 192 (621643)
06-27-2011 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by zi ko
06-27-2011 12:36 PM


Empathy is atype of information.

But it is not a type of genomic information, which is what we are talking about.

The antilope may dy, but the watchinf other members of family or tribe.

How does that observation change the genomic sequence in sperm and ova?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by zi ko, posted 06-27-2011 12:36 PM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 06-27-2011 8:04 PM Taq has not yet responded
 Message 58 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 11:47 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3812
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 48 of 192 (621661)
06-27-2011 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
06-27-2011 4:50 PM


An Obvious Mechanism
How does that observation change the genomic sequence in sperm and ova?

You were not paying attention Taq.

In Message 37 I gave a definitive paraphrase of zi ko's mechanism:

quote:
Information unspecified as to type, character or form gets into the body by some unknown means and is changed by some unknown mechanism into something else as yet unspecified based upon an emotion then some unknown mechanism somehow recognises this information as 'benficial' and somehow gets it to the genome and in some undescribed way can alter the base pairs of a somehow specifically targetted gene.

I hope this clears up your confusion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 06-27-2011 4:50 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 49 of 192 (621700)
06-28-2011 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by ZenMonkey
06-27-2011 12:22 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
zi ko writes:
"My new ideas are the "thinking neural system" and empathy role on evolution"

And since the overwhelming majority of life on this planet, past and present, has evolved and flourished without anything like a nervous system or neural network of any kind, your conjecture has dropped dead before leaving the starting gate. This horse is dead no matter how hard you beat it.

In Bacteria and multicellular organisms without neural tissue chemicals and systems like genetic engineering and maybe others not known yet stand for neural system


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-27-2011 12:22 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 10:29 AM zi ko has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1998
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 50 of 192 (621704)
06-28-2011 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by zi ko
06-21-2011 12:47 PM


Information's role
Maybe the role of information should play an important role in evolutionary theory. Maybe not. It seems to be very impractical to do it, though.

For example, how do you define and quantify the "information" in the DNA of the fossils of unicellular organisms we find in the lowest geological strata where we first find life? It is impossible to do.

To me the rational way to do it is to look at the evidence, and from there, conclude that life developed, no matter what our definition of the word "information" is in biology. You can't wish reality away.

Lets start with the basics. Define the word "information" and also quantify It. That's the only way for the word "information" to be useful in biology.

The word also has to reflect reality. It seems as if creationists try to do it without consulting reality. They only try wishful thinking. Not even one creationist has ever tried to explain to me why a Portuguese-Man-Of-War has less "information" than a jellyfish. Yet they all claim that does. No reason, just "because".

Edited by Pressie, : Changed a sentence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by zi ko, posted 06-21-2011 12:47 PM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 10:38 AM Pressie has not yet responded
 Message 55 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 11:00 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 51 of 192 (621705)
06-28-2011 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Larni
06-27-2011 1:15 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
"You can call it an idea. But remember it is part of the comprehensive theory of Neuro-genic evolution.(www.sleepgadgetabs.com) "

Objection, m'lud: it's not a theory, it is a unsubstantiated hypothesis, at best.

Sustained: the counsel will not refer to an unsubstantiated, at best hypothesis as a theory.

Carry on.

It does not matter to me if somebody call it a theory or a hypothesis, as it is logical and it is based on observation. If it was substandntiated it would almost be a fact. But it has falsified proposition as it should.


"My new ideas are the 'thinking neural system' and empathy role on evolution."

"Empathy is atype of information. It follows the same paths as information does. And the same mechanism. "

No, no, no! Bad crank! You've been told what empathy is by me on this very thread. Wat hing some one smile will not affect your genes.

And they are unsubstantiated, sigh.

Remember this 'no,no,no.......is adressed to so many epigenesis biologists, Shapiro, Pigliutcci,Weismann, and Darwin himsrelf.


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Larni, posted 06-27-2011 1:15 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 52 of 192 (621707)
06-28-2011 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Taq
06-27-2011 4:49 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
So how does your theory explain detrimental mutations, such as those that cause horrifically painful diseases in young children that then lead to their early death?

As they were explained before byDarwinism and MS.


"Information role on evolution and its mechanisms is already established by innumerable works on epigenetics and those by Shapiro, B. Wright. Dobshansky , Weismann, father of Ms theory and Darwin himself had aknowledged its significance.So sadly enough your critic is adressed to them and many others as well, not exactly to me."

Epigenetics does not change the genomic sequence, and the mutations that Shapiro et al. speak of are random with respect to fitness. If you think I am wrong, then please cite a paper that demonstrates that mutations are not random with respect to fitness.

Indeed the genomic sequence in vertical line does not change. But it seems it can change by horizontal gene transfer or by energising or inhibiting engineering systems ect.
I can accept that mutations for fitness are random. But there are various other previous to mutations mechanisms that are directcted by the information input, so the whole procedure becomes clearly 'a function driven evolution.'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Taq, posted 06-27-2011 4:49 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Taq, posted 06-28-2011 3:42 PM zi ko has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 53 of 192 (621708)
06-28-2011 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by zi ko
06-28-2011 8:28 AM


Re: Empathy Transfer
In Bacteria and multicellular organisms without neural tissue chemicals and systems like genetic engineering and maybe others not known yet stand for neural system

This is so much pie in the sky. How can this be even considered empathy? Empathy is a descriptor for a very specific type of cognition.

Chemicals? Genetic engineering? Others not yet known?

It does not matter to me if somebody call it a theory or a hypothesis, as it is logical and it is based on observation.

Yes it does, and no, it is not.

What observations do you have for your idea?

Remember this 'no,no,no.......is adressed to so many epigenesis biologists, Shapiro, Pigliutcci,Weismann, and Darwin himsrelf.

Darwin said fuck all about empathy being a causative factor in mutation; in fact none of them did.

As they were explained before byDarwinism and MS.

As this is true (I assume you mean NS) there is no gap in our knowledge that requires you idea of empathy powering evolution.

You have yet to provide any evidence (in your own words rather than a cut and paste job that does not support your idea).

If you don't pony up some evidence I'm done with listening you and you fail to convince yet another person that you idea has any foundation in logic.

You don't even have to try to hard with me, I used to beleive that time could stretch - I'm pretty credulous!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 8:28 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 11:20 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 54 of 192 (621709)
06-28-2011 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Pressie
06-28-2011 9:14 AM


Re: Information's role
Maybe the role of information should play an important role in evolutionary theory. Maybe not. It seems to be very impractical to do it, though.
For example, how do you define and quantify the "information" in the DNA of the fossils of unicellular organisms we find in the lowest geological strata where we first find life? It is impossible to do.

To me the rational way to do it is to look at the evidence, and from there, conclude that life developed, no matter what our definition of the word "information" is in biology. You can't wish reality away.

Lets start with the basics. Define the word "information" and also quantify It. That's the only way for the word "information" to be useful in biology.

The word also has to reflect reality. It seems as if creationists try to do it without consulting reality. They only try wishful thinking. Not even one creationist has ever tried to explain to me why a Portuguese-Man-Of-War has less "information" than a jellyfish. Yet they all claim that does. No reason, just "because".

As i see it in a rational way information ,being the same in one cell and in higher multicellular organisms, basically is anything it comes from environment and innerself that endagers existence, or the opposite of it
Shapiro's work on natural genetic engineering systems in bacteria give us an example of how this basic information woks and what the result it can be.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Pressie, posted 06-28-2011 9:14 AM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 11:46 AM zi ko has responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 55 of 192 (621713)
06-28-2011 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Pressie
06-28-2011 9:14 AM


Re: Information's role
Maybe the role of information should play an important role in evolutionary theory. Maybe not. It seems to be very impractical to do it, though.
For example, how do you define and quantify the "information" in the DNA of the fossils of unicellular organisms we find in the lowest geological strata where we first find life? It is impossible to do.

To me the rational way to do it is to look at the evidence, and from there, conclude that life developed, no matter what our definition of the word "information" is in biology. You can't wish reality away.

Lets start with the basics. Define the word "information" and also quantify It. That's the only way for the word "information" to be useful in biology.

The word also has to reflect reality. It seems as if creationists try to do it without consulting reality. They only try wishful thinking. Not even one creationist has ever tried to explain to me why a Portuguese-Man-Of-War has less "information" than a jellyfish. Yet they all claim that does. No reason, just "because".

As i see it in a rational way information ,being the same in one cell and in higher multicellular organisms, basically is anything it comes from environment and innerself that endagers existence, or the opposite of it
Shapiro's work on natural genetic engineering systems in bacteria give us an example of how this basic information woks and what the result it can be.


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Pressie, posted 06-28-2011 9:14 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 56 of 192 (621714)
06-28-2011 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Larni
06-28-2011 10:29 AM


Re: Empathy Transfer
Darwin said fuck all about empathy being a causative factor in mutation; in fact none of them did.

They had n't said about empathy, but they did about environment's role in evolution. It is all written.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 10:29 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 57 of 192 (621716)
06-28-2011 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by zi ko
06-28-2011 10:38 AM


Re: Information's role
As i see it in a rational way information ,being the same in one cell and in higher multicellular organisms, basically is anything it comes from environment and innerself that endagers existence, or the opposite of it
Shapiro's work on natural genetic engineering systems in bacteria give us an example of how this basic information woks and what the result it can be.

None of that has anything to do with empathy.

They had n't said about empathy, but they did about environment's role in evolution. It is all written.

Again, nothing to do with empathy.

Face it. Empathy has nothing to do with affecting genetics.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 10:38 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 11:57 AM Larni has responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 58 of 192 (621717)
06-28-2011 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
06-27-2011 4:50 PM


Empathy is atype of

"Empathy is atype of information."

But it is not a type of genomic information, which is what we are talking about.

"The antilope may dy, but the watching other members of family or tribe live and transfer the emotional act by empathy."

How does that observation change the genomic sequence in sperm and ova?

Information becomes genomic as soon as is loaded with emotion and has survival value ( and this is the reason why it is transferred by empathy).

We know from epigenetics, Shapiro, Wrigt, Weismann and Darwin himself and others, that environment (namely) information has an important role in evolution. I suppose they all know??? the mechanism of how information can act on genome.Can i say that i know more than they?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 06-27-2011 4:50 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 11:57 AM zi ko has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 59 of 192 (621719)
06-28-2011 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by zi ko
06-28-2011 11:47 AM


Re: Empathy is atype of
The environment does effect evolution.

Empathy is not part of the environment: it is an internal process.

You seem to be thinking that empathy is some factor akin to social living (which would effect evolution).

Please tell me I'm wrong about this.

We know from epigenetics, Shapiro, Wrigt, Weismann and Darwin himself and others, that environment (namely) information has an important role in evolution. I suppose they all know??? the mechanism of how information can act on genome.Can i say that i know more than they?

I think you don't understand what they are telling you.

Put into your own words what you think Shapiro, Wrigt (sic), Weismann and Darwin himself are telling you.

Bet you can't.

Edited by Larni, : The wager.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 11:47 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 11:23 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 60 of 192 (621720)
06-28-2011 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Larni
06-28-2011 11:46 AM


Re: Information's role

"They had n't said about empathy, but they did about environment's role in evolution. It is all written. "

Again, nothing to do with empathy.

So you accept the idea that environment plays a role in evolution. Am i wright?


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 11:46 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 12:00 PM zi ko has responded

    
Prev123
4
56
...
13Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019