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Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 42 of 192 (621624)
06-27-2011 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Meddle
06-26-2011 9:42 PM


Sorry. There some confusion here becouse of a proposed theory of neuro-genc evolution (http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com) by me on another thread.
Empathy is a type of information. It follows the same paths as information does. And the same mechanism.
It starts functioning as the organism gets neural tissue.
The antilope may die, but the watching other members of family or tribe still live and they transfer the information by empathy.
The CF example has nothing to do with my theory.I dont deny mutations not either natural selection. These cases are explained as before.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

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 Message 38 by Meddle, posted 06-26-2011 9:42 PM Meddle has not replied

Replies to this message:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 49 of 192 (621700)
06-28-2011 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by ZenMonkey
06-27-2011 12:22 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
zi ko writes:
"My new ideas are the "thinking neural system" and empathy role on evolution"
And since the overwhelming majority of life on this planet, past and present, has evolved and flourished without anything like a nervous system or neural network of any kind, your conjecture has dropped dead before leaving the starting gate. This horse is dead no matter how hard you beat it.
In Bacteria and multicellular organisms without neural tissue chemicals and systems like genetic engineering and maybe others not known yet stand for neural system

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-27-2011 12:22 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 10:29 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 51 of 192 (621705)
06-28-2011 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Larni
06-27-2011 1:15 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
"You can call it an idea. But remember it is part of the comprehensive theory of Neuro-genic evolution.(http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com) "
Objection, m'lud: it's not a theory, it is a unsubstantiated hypothesis, at best.
Sustained: the counsel will not refer to an unsubstantiated, at best hypothesis as a theory.
Carry on.
It does not matter to me if somebody call it a theory or a hypothesis, as it is logical and it is based on observation. If it was substandntiated it would almost be a fact. But it has falsified proposition as it should.
"My new ideas are the 'thinking neural system' and empathy role on evolution."
"Empathy is atype of information. It follows the same paths as information does. And the same mechanism. "
No, no, no! Bad crank! You've been told what empathy is by me on this very thread. Wat hing some one smile will not affect your genes.
And they are unsubstantiated, sigh.
Remember this 'no,no,no.......is adressed to so many epigenesis biologists, Shapiro, Pigliutcci,Weismann, and Darwin himsrelf.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Larni, posted 06-27-2011 1:15 PM Larni has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 52 of 192 (621707)
06-28-2011 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Taq
06-27-2011 4:49 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
So how does your theory explain detrimental mutations, such as those that cause horrifically painful diseases in young children that then lead to their early death?
As they were explained before byDarwinism and MS.
"Information role on evolution and its mechanisms is already established by innumerable works on epigenetics and those by Shapiro, B. Wright. Dobshansky , Weismann, father of Ms theory and Darwin himself had aknowledged its significance.So sadly enough your critic is adressed to them and many others as well, not exactly to me."
Epigenetics does not change the genomic sequence, and the mutations that Shapiro et al. speak of are random with respect to fitness. If you think I am wrong, then please cite a paper that demonstrates that mutations are not random with respect to fitness.
Indeed the genomic sequence in vertical line does not change. But it seems it can change by horizontal gene transfer or by energising or inhibiting engineering systems ect.
I can accept that mutations for fitness are random. But there are various other previous to mutations mechanisms that are directcted by the information input, so the whole procedure becomes clearly 'a function driven evolution.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Taq, posted 06-27-2011 4:49 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Taq, posted 06-28-2011 3:42 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 54 of 192 (621709)
06-28-2011 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Pressie
06-28-2011 9:14 AM


Re: Information's role
Maybe the role of information should play an important role in evolutionary theory. Maybe not. It seems to be very impractical to do it, though.
For example, how do you define and quantify the "information" in the DNA of the fossils of unicellular organisms we find in the lowest geological strata where we first find life? It is impossible to do.
To me the rational way to do it is to look at the evidence, and from there, conclude that life developed, no matter what our definition of the word "information" is in biology. You can't wish reality away.
Lets start with the basics. Define the word "information" and also quantify It. That's the only way for the word "information" to be useful in biology.
The word also has to reflect reality. It seems as if creationists try to do it without consulting reality. They only try wishful thinking. Not even one creationist has ever tried to explain to me why a Portuguese-Man-Of-War has less "information" than a jellyfish. Yet they all claim that does. No reason, just "because".
As i see it in a rational way information ,being the same in one cell and in higher multicellular organisms, basically is anything it comes from environment and innerself that endagers existence, or the opposite of it
Shapiro's work on natural genetic engineering systems in bacteria give us an example of how this basic information woks and what the result it can be.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 11:46 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 55 of 192 (621713)
06-28-2011 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Pressie
06-28-2011 9:14 AM


Re: Information's role
Maybe the role of information should play an important role in evolutionary theory. Maybe not. It seems to be very impractical to do it, though.
For example, how do you define and quantify the "information" in the DNA of the fossils of unicellular organisms we find in the lowest geological strata where we first find life? It is impossible to do.
To me the rational way to do it is to look at the evidence, and from there, conclude that life developed, no matter what our definition of the word "information" is in biology. You can't wish reality away.
Lets start with the basics. Define the word "information" and also quantify It. That's the only way for the word "information" to be useful in biology.
The word also has to reflect reality. It seems as if creationists try to do it without consulting reality. They only try wishful thinking. Not even one creationist has ever tried to explain to me why a Portuguese-Man-Of-War has less "information" than a jellyfish. Yet they all claim that does. No reason, just "because".
As i see it in a rational way information ,being the same in one cell and in higher multicellular organisms, basically is anything it comes from environment and innerself that endagers existence, or the opposite of it
Shapiro's work on natural genetic engineering systems in bacteria give us an example of how this basic information woks and what the result it can be.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Pressie, posted 06-28-2011 9:14 AM Pressie has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 56 of 192 (621714)
06-28-2011 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Larni
06-28-2011 10:29 AM


Re: Empathy Transfer
Darwin said fuck all about empathy being a causative factor in mutation; in fact none of them did.
They had n't said about empathy, but they did about environment's role in evolution. It is all written.

This message is a reply to:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 58 of 192 (621717)
06-28-2011 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
06-27-2011 4:50 PM


Empathy is atype of
"Empathy is atype of information."
But it is not a type of genomic information, which is what we are talking about.
"The antilope may dy, but the watching other members of family or tribe live and transfer the emotional act by empathy."
How does that observation change the genomic sequence in sperm and ova?
Information becomes genomic as soon as is loaded with emotion and has survival value ( and this is the reason why it is transferred by empathy).
We know from epigenetics, Shapiro, Wrigt, Weismann and Darwin himself and others, that environment (namely) information has an important role in evolution. I suppose they all know??? the mechanism of how information can act on genome.Can i say that i know more than they?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

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 Message 47 by Taq, posted 06-27-2011 4:50 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 11:57 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 60 of 192 (621720)
06-28-2011 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Larni
06-28-2011 11:46 AM


Re: Information's role
"They had n't said about empathy, but they did about environment's role in evolution. It is all written. "
Again, nothing to do with empathy.
So you accept the idea that environment plays a role in evolution. Am i wright?

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 11:46 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 12:00 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 62 of 192 (621722)
06-28-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Larni
06-28-2011 12:00 PM


Re: Information's role
"So you accept the idea that environment plays a role in evolution. Am i wright? "
Of course it does. Everybody knows that already, thank you very much.
Empathy does not.
That was you point; I take issue with that point.
OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 12:00 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-28-2011 12:55 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 65 by Nuggin, posted 06-28-2011 1:13 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 66 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 1:35 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 68 of 192 (621778)
06-28-2011 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Larni
06-28-2011 11:57 AM


Re: Empathy is atype of information
The environment does effect evolution.
Empathy is not part of the environment: it is an internal process.
You seem to be thinking that empathy is some factor akin to social living (which would effect evolution).
Please tell me I'm wrong about this.
"We know from epigenetics, Shapiro,B. Wright, Weismann and Darwin himself and others, that environment (namely information) has an important role in evolution. I suppose they all know??? the mechanism of how information can act on genome.Can i say that i know more than they?"
I think you don't understand what they are telling you.
Put into your own words what you think Shapiro, Wrigt (sic), Weismann and Darwin himself are telling you.
Bet you can't.
You have to realise that all above say cleary that environment affect evolution in two ways. A.By natural selection B.By direct through information influence.
Empathy is a type of information, that it is what it is specifically transferred to genome, because it has allways an emotional flavour and acts over many generations.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 11:57 AM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Nuggin, posted 06-28-2011 11:45 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 70 of 192 (621784)
06-29-2011 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by ZenMonkey
06-28-2011 12:55 PM


Re: DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
zi ko writes:
OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise?
It's done by natural selection, of course. Information transfer has absolutely nothing to do with natural selection, and if you actually understood natural selection you'd see that the cognitive processes of individual organisms have very little if anything to do with it. In fact, the whole beauty of natural selection is that it works as an unguided, blind process, with no input from or concern for those being selected.
Not only by natural selection.By direct influence from environment(namely through information) as well , according to epigenesis to Shapiro, Barbara wright, Yablonka, Pigliucci, Weismann (father of MD theory), Darwin.
'In fact, the whole beauty of ............... being selected.'
I am am afraid that this was the trap that Darwinists had dropped in. It was so easy ,tempting and beautiful to believe and to throw away any embarassing doupt...

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-28-2011 12:55 PM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 80 by Taq, posted 06-29-2011 2:11 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 71 of 192 (621785)
06-29-2011 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Nuggin
06-28-2011 1:13 PM


Re: Information's role
"OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise? "
Natural Selection.
Do you deny natural selection? Do you have a specific objection to it?
I don't denay natural selection. But i don't think is the only way.
I
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Nuggin, posted 06-28-2011 1:13 PM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Taq, posted 06-29-2011 2:09 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 72 of 192 (621787)
06-29-2011 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Larni
06-28-2011 1:35 PM


Re: Information's role
"OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise?"
Now I am confused: how is what being done?
The evolution procedure (apart of natural selection),according to Darwin, Shapiro ect.Tis is what i am asking.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 1:35 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Larni, posted 06-29-2011 5:55 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 74 of 192 (621791)
06-29-2011 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Nuggin
06-28-2011 11:45 PM


Re: Empathy is atype of information
"Empathy is a type of information, that it is what it is specifically transferred to genome, because it has allways an emotional flavour and acts over many generations. "
Ridiculous.
Show me, IN THE LAB, how "empathy" is passed from generation of E. Coli to the next.
There is not empathy in bacteria, but there are chemicals, the enginnering systems (precursors of neural tissue) and maybe others as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Nuggin, posted 06-28-2011 11:45 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Nuggin, posted 06-29-2011 1:39 AM zi ko has not replied
 Message 78 by Taq, posted 06-29-2011 2:08 AM zi ko has replied

  
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