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Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 61 of 192 (621721)
06-28-2011 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by zi ko
06-28-2011 11:57 AM


Re: Information's role
So you accept the idea that environment plays a role in evolution. Am i wright?
Of course it does. Everybody knows that already, thank you very much.
Empathy does not.
That was you point; I take issue with that point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 11:57 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 12:17 PM Larni has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3638 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 62 of 192 (621722)
06-28-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Larni
06-28-2011 12:00 PM


Re: Information's role
"So you accept the idea that environment plays a role in evolution. Am i wright? "
Of course it does. Everybody knows that already, thank you very much.
Empathy does not.
That was you point; I take issue with that point.
OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 12:00 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-28-2011 12:55 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 65 by Nuggin, posted 06-28-2011 1:13 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 66 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 1:35 PM zi ko has replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4529 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 63 of 192 (621725)
06-28-2011 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by zi ko
06-28-2011 12:17 PM


Re: Information's role
zi ko writes:
OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise?
It's done by natural selection, of course. Information transfer has absolutely nothing to do with natural selection, and if you actually understood natural selection you'd see that the cognitive processes of individual organisms have very little if anything to do with it. In fact, the whole beauty of natural selection is that it works as an unguided, blind process, with no input from or concern for those being selected.
Now if you want to discuss cultural evolution and Dawkins's meme hypothesis, that's something else entirely.

Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric
Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 12:17 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 12:00 AM ZenMonkey has replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4529 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 64 of 192 (621728)
06-28-2011 1:09 PM


Science fair projects that don't win first prize.
Honestly, this whole discussion reminds me very much of my 5th grade science fair project, which consisted in its entirety of a poster with drawing of a big vertical spiral, like a spring stood on end. As I remember it, the accompanying text said that if time had a corkscrew or spiral shape, then we could travel through time simply by jumping from one level of that spiral to the next. End of hypothesis.
My memory might be faulty after so many years, but I think that there was reason that my display didn't feature a working model of a time machine based on my hypothesis, and it wasn't because my father didn't have a workshop in the garage.

Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric
Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 65 of 192 (621730)
06-28-2011 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by zi ko
06-28-2011 12:17 PM


Re: Information's role
OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise?
Natural Selection.
Do you deny natural selection? Do you have a specific objection to it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 12:17 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 12:11 AM Nuggin has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 182 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 66 of 192 (621734)
06-28-2011 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by zi ko
06-28-2011 12:17 PM


Re: Information's role
OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise?
Now I am confused: how is what being done?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 12:17 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 12:21 AM Larni has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 67 of 192 (621750)
06-28-2011 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by zi ko
06-28-2011 9:44 AM


Re: Empathy Transfer
Indeed the genomic sequence in vertical line does not change.
They do change from generation to generation. They change through mutations, but not through epigenetics. Also, HGT is mutation. It is the insertion of foreign DNA into the host genome. These events, just like other mutations, can be beneficial, neutral, or detrimental. The insertion of retroviruses into the human genome are a perfect example. By last count, we have nearly 200,000 of these insertions (most being solo LTR's). Some of them do have beneficial function, but the vast majority are acquiring mutations at a rate consistent with neutral drift (i.e. they are neutral).
I can accept that mutations for fitness are random. But there are various other previous to mutations mechanisms that are directcted by the information input, so the whole procedure becomes clearly 'a function driven evolution.'
Only heritable information can drive evolution. That is why random mutations with respect to fitness are important to the process of evolution and why your ramblings are not.
Also, the directed nature of protein-protein interactions are a product of their DNA sequence. Change the DNA sequence and you can change how information is handled in the cell. Therefore, the only way to change how a cell processes information is by changing the DNA sequence. This is why random mutations are important to the process of evolution, because they are inheritable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 9:44 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 1:41 AM Taq has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3638 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 68 of 192 (621778)
06-28-2011 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Larni
06-28-2011 11:57 AM


Re: Empathy is atype of information
The environment does effect evolution.
Empathy is not part of the environment: it is an internal process.
You seem to be thinking that empathy is some factor akin to social living (which would effect evolution).
Please tell me I'm wrong about this.
"We know from epigenetics, Shapiro,B. Wright, Weismann and Darwin himself and others, that environment (namely information) has an important role in evolution. I suppose they all know??? the mechanism of how information can act on genome.Can i say that i know more than they?"
I think you don't understand what they are telling you.
Put into your own words what you think Shapiro, Wrigt (sic), Weismann and Darwin himself are telling you.
Bet you can't.
You have to realise that all above say cleary that environment affect evolution in two ways. A.By natural selection B.By direct through information influence.
Empathy is a type of information, that it is what it is specifically transferred to genome, because it has allways an emotional flavour and acts over many generations.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 11:57 AM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Nuggin, posted 06-28-2011 11:45 PM zi ko has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 69 of 192 (621780)
06-28-2011 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by zi ko
06-28-2011 11:23 PM


Re: Empathy is atype of information
Empathy is a type of information, that it is what it is specifically transferred to genome, because it has allways an emotional flavour and acts over many generations.
Ridiculous.
Show me, IN THE LAB, how "empathy" is passed from generation of E. Coli to the next.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by zi ko, posted 06-28-2011 11:23 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 12:57 AM Nuggin has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3638 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 70 of 192 (621784)
06-29-2011 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by ZenMonkey
06-28-2011 12:55 PM


Re: DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
zi ko writes:
OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise?
It's done by natural selection, of course. Information transfer has absolutely nothing to do with natural selection, and if you actually understood natural selection you'd see that the cognitive processes of individual organisms have very little if anything to do with it. In fact, the whole beauty of natural selection is that it works as an unguided, blind process, with no input from or concern for those being selected.
Not only by natural selection.By direct influence from environment(namely through information) as well , according to epigenesis to Shapiro, Barbara wright, Yablonka, Pigliucci, Weismann (father of MD theory), Darwin.
'In fact, the whole beauty of ............... being selected.'
I am am afraid that this was the trap that Darwinists had dropped in. It was so easy ,tempting and beautiful to believe and to throw away any embarassing doupt...

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-28-2011 12:55 PM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-29-2011 12:39 AM zi ko has not replied
 Message 80 by Taq, posted 06-29-2011 2:11 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3638 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 71 of 192 (621785)
06-29-2011 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Nuggin
06-28-2011 1:13 PM


Re: Information's role
"OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise? "
Natural Selection.
Do you deny natural selection? Do you have a specific objection to it?
I don't denay natural selection. But i don't think is the only way.
I
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Nuggin, posted 06-28-2011 1:13 PM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Taq, posted 06-29-2011 2:09 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3638 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 72 of 192 (621787)
06-29-2011 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Larni
06-28-2011 1:35 PM


Re: Information's role
"OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise?"
Now I am confused: how is what being done?
The evolution procedure (apart of natural selection),according to Darwin, Shapiro ect.Tis is what i am asking.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Larni, posted 06-28-2011 1:35 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Larni, posted 06-29-2011 5:55 AM zi ko has replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4529 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 73 of 192 (621789)
06-29-2011 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by zi ko
06-29-2011 12:00 AM


Re: DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
zi ko writes:
I am am afraid that this was the trap that Darwinists had dropped in. It was so easy ,tempting and beautiful to believe and to throw away any embarassing doupt...
Um, it also happens to be true.
quote:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
-- Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 12:00 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3638 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 74 of 192 (621791)
06-29-2011 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Nuggin
06-28-2011 11:45 PM


Re: Empathy is atype of information
"Empathy is a type of information, that it is what it is specifically transferred to genome, because it has allways an emotional flavour and acts over many generations. "
Ridiculous.
Show me, IN THE LAB, how "empathy" is passed from generation of E. Coli to the next.
There is not empathy in bacteria, but there are chemicals, the enginnering systems (precursors of neural tissue) and maybe others as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Nuggin, posted 06-28-2011 11:45 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Nuggin, posted 06-29-2011 1:39 AM zi ko has not replied
 Message 78 by Taq, posted 06-29-2011 2:08 AM zi ko has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 75 of 192 (621795)
06-29-2011 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by zi ko
06-29-2011 12:57 AM


Re: Empathy is atype of information
There is not empathy in bacteria, but there are chemicals, the enginnering systems (precursors of neural tissue) and maybe others as well.
So, natural selection leads to evolution.
However, you are claiming that other things lead to natural selection even though you don't have a mechanism for it, AND when we point out things that don't have even the concept you are pitching, you admit that they aren't subject.
Basically you have nothing.
I'm getting bored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 12:57 AM zi ko has not replied

  
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