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Author | Topic: Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Larni Member (Idle past 185 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
So you accept the idea that environment plays a role in evolution. Am i wright? Of course it does. Everybody knows that already, thank you very much. Empathy does not. That was you point; I take issue with that point.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3640 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
"So you accept the idea that environment plays a role in evolution. Am i wright? " Of course it does. Everybody knows that already, thank you very much. Empathy does not. That was you point; I take issue with that point. OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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ZenMonkey Member (Idle past 4532 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
zi ko writes: OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise? It's done by natural selection, of course. Information transfer has absolutely nothing to do with natural selection, and if you actually understood natural selection you'd see that the cognitive processes of individual organisms have very little if anything to do with it. In fact, the whole beauty of natural selection is that it works as an unguided, blind process, with no input from or concern for those being selected. Now if you want to discuss cultural evolution and Dawkins's meme hypothesis, that's something else entirely. Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs. -Theodoric Reality has a well-known liberal bias.-Steven Colbert I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.- John Stuart Mill
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ZenMonkey Member (Idle past 4532 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
Honestly, this whole discussion reminds me very much of my 5th grade science fair project, which consisted in its entirety of a poster with drawing of a big vertical spiral, like a spring stood on end. As I remember it, the accompanying text said that if time had a corkscrew or spiral shape, then we could travel through time simply by jumping from one level of that spiral to the next. End of hypothesis.
My memory might be faulty after so many years, but I think that there was reason that my display didn't feature a working model of a time machine based on my hypothesis, and it wasn't because my father didn't have a workshop in the garage. Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs. -Theodoric Reality has a well-known liberal bias.-Steven Colbert I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.- John Stuart Mill |
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2513 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise? Natural Selection. Do you deny natural selection? Do you have a specific objection to it?
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Larni Member (Idle past 185 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise?
Now I am confused: how is what being done?
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Taq Member Posts: 10038 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Indeed the genomic sequence in vertical line does not change. They do change from generation to generation. They change through mutations, but not through epigenetics. Also, HGT is mutation. It is the insertion of foreign DNA into the host genome. These events, just like other mutations, can be beneficial, neutral, or detrimental. The insertion of retroviruses into the human genome are a perfect example. By last count, we have nearly 200,000 of these insertions (most being solo LTR's). Some of them do have beneficial function, but the vast majority are acquiring mutations at a rate consistent with neutral drift (i.e. they are neutral).
I can accept that mutations for fitness are random. But there are various other previous to mutations mechanisms that are directcted by the information input, so the whole procedure becomes clearly 'a function driven evolution.'
Only heritable information can drive evolution. That is why random mutations with respect to fitness are important to the process of evolution and why your ramblings are not. Also, the directed nature of protein-protein interactions are a product of their DNA sequence. Change the DNA sequence and you can change how information is handled in the cell. Therefore, the only way to change how a cell processes information is by changing the DNA sequence. This is why random mutations are important to the process of evolution, because they are inheritable.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3640 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
The environment does effect evolution. Empathy is not part of the environment: it is an internal process. You seem to be thinking that empathy is some factor akin to social living (which would effect evolution). Please tell me I'm wrong about this. "We know from epigenetics, Shapiro,B. Wright, Weismann and Darwin himself and others, that environment (namely information) has an important role in evolution. I suppose they all know??? the mechanism of how information can act on genome.Can i say that i know more than they?" I think you don't understand what they are telling you. Put into your own words what you think Shapiro, Wrigt (sic), Weismann and Darwin himself are telling you. Bet you can't. You have to realise that all above say cleary that environment affect evolution in two ways. A.By natural selection B.By direct through information influence.Empathy is a type of information, that it is what it is specifically transferred to genome, because it has allways an emotional flavour and acts over many generations. Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2513 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Empathy is a type of information, that it is what it is specifically transferred to genome, because it has allways an emotional flavour and acts over many generations. Ridiculous. Show me, IN THE LAB, how "empathy" is passed from generation of E. Coli to the next.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3640 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
zi ko writes: OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise? It's done by natural selection, of course. Information transfer has absolutely nothing to do with natural selection, and if you actually understood natural selection you'd see that the cognitive processes of individual organisms have very little if anything to do with it. In fact, the whole beauty of natural selection is that it works as an unguided, blind process, with no input from or concern for those being selected. Not only by natural selection.By direct influence from environment(namely through information) as well , according to epigenesis to Shapiro, Barbara wright, Yablonka, Pigliucci, Weismann (father of MD theory), Darwin. 'In fact, the whole beauty of ............... being selected.'I am am afraid that this was the trap that Darwinists had dropped in. It was so easy ,tempting and beautiful to believe and to throw away any embarassing doupt... Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3640 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
"OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise? " Natural Selection. Do you deny natural selection? Do you have a specific objection to it? I don't denay natural selection. But i don't think is the only way. I -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3640 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
"OK. How do you suppose is being done? By information transfer or otherwise?" Now I am confused: how is what being done? The evolution procedure (apart of natural selection),according to Darwin, Shapiro ect.Tis is what i am asking. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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ZenMonkey Member (Idle past 4532 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
zi ko writes: I am am afraid that this was the trap that Darwinists had dropped in. It was so easy ,tempting and beautiful to believe and to throw away any embarassing doupt... Um, it also happens to be true.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3640 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
"Empathy is a type of information, that it is what it is specifically transferred to genome, because it has allways an emotional flavour and acts over many generations. " Ridiculous. Show me, IN THE LAB, how "empathy" is passed from generation of E. Coli to the next. There is not empathy in bacteria, but there are chemicals, the enginnering systems (precursors of neural tissue) and maybe others as well. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2513 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
There is not empathy in bacteria, but there are chemicals, the enginnering systems (precursors of neural tissue) and maybe others as well. So, natural selection leads to evolution. However, you are claiming that other things lead to natural selection even though you don't have a mechanism for it, AND when we point out things that don't have even the concept you are pitching, you admit that they aren't subject. Basically you have nothing. I'm getting bored.
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