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Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 76 of 192 (621797)
06-29-2011 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Taq
06-28-2011 3:42 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
"Indeed the genomic sequence in vertical line does not change. "
They do change from generation to generation. They change through mutations, but not through epigenetics. Also, HGT is mutation. It is the insertion of foreign DNA into the host genome. These events, just like other mutations, can be beneficial, neutral, or detrimental. The insertion of retroviruses into the human genome are a perfect example. By last count, we have nearly 200,000 of these insertions (most being solo LTR's). Some of them do have beneficial function, but the vast majority are acquiring mutations at a rate consistent with neutral drift (i.e. they are neutral).
"I can accept that mutations for fitness are random. But there are various other previous to mutations mechanisms that are directcted by the information input, so the whole procedure becomes clearly 'a function driven evolution.' "
Only heritable information can drive evolution. That is why random mutations with respect to fitness are important to the process of evolution and why your ramblings are not.
Also, the directed nature of protein-protein interactions are a product of their DNA sequence. Change the DNA sequence and you can change how information is handled in the cell. Therefore, the only way to change how a cell processes information is by changing the DNA sequence. This is why random mutations are important to the process of evolution, because they are inheritable.
Epigenetics can in some cases producee permanent and inhertable changes. In HGT mutations can take part, but also information can pave the way to new combinations that tend to be useful.-
My 'ramblings' can be put under falsifibility procedures , where your "assertions" can not.Your Theory is doomed tolpass the falsification test only when my theory fails it.
It is nice to hear that information reaches to the cell and is handled by it , through DNA sequence. Its a good start we agree at.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Taq, posted 06-28-2011 3:42 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Taq, posted 06-29-2011 2:06 AM zi ko has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 77 of 192 (621800)
06-29-2011 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by zi ko
06-29-2011 1:41 AM


Re: Empathy Transfer
Epigenetics can in some cases producee permanent and inhertable changes.
No, it can't. Epigenetics does not change the DNA sequence. The reasons that chimps and humans are different is because our DNA sequence is different, not because our DNA methylation patterns are different.
In HGT mutations can take part, but also information can pave the way to new combinations that tend to be useful.
HGT is random with respect to fitness as exemplified by ERV's found in the human genome.
My 'ramblings' can be put under falsification procedures ,
So what are the falsifications?
It is nice to hear that information reaches to the cell and is handled by it , through DNA sequence. Its a good start we agree at.
Where it concerns evolution, information is transferred through natural selection. This is the process by which random mutations are filtered through environmental information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 1:41 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by zi ko, posted 06-30-2011 11:48 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 78 of 192 (621801)
06-29-2011 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by zi ko
06-29-2011 12:57 AM


Re: Empathy is atype of information
There is not empathy in bacteria, but there are chemicals, the enginnering systems (precursors of neural tissue) and maybe others as well.
So show us how these engineering systems guide mutations so that they only produce specific beneficial mutations in a given environment, and only those mutations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 12:57 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by zi ko, posted 06-30-2011 12:01 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 79 of 192 (621802)
06-29-2011 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by zi ko
06-29-2011 12:11 AM


Re: Information's role
I don't denay natural selection. But i don't think is the only way.
Then demonstrate, WITH DATA, what the other way is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 12:11 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by zi ko, posted 06-30-2011 12:05 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 80 of 192 (621803)
06-29-2011 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by zi ko
06-29-2011 12:00 AM


Re: DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
Not only by natural selection.By direct influence from environment(namely through information) as well , according to epigenesis to Shapiro, Barbara wright, Yablonka, Pigliucci, Weismann (father of MD theory), Darwin.
Epigenesis DOES NOT CHANGE THE DNA SEQUENCE. Chimps and humans are different because our DNA sequences are different. Therefore, your theory is meaningless for explaining the differences between species. IOW, your theory is useless as it relates to evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 12:00 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by zi ko, posted 06-30-2011 12:15 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 81 of 192 (621805)
06-29-2011 2:41 AM


Question to zi ko:
With the right empathic input, could a human give birth to a zebra?

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 82 of 192 (621824)
06-29-2011 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by zi ko
06-29-2011 12:21 AM


Re: Information's role
What I don't understand is why you think empathy is anything other than a cognitive process.
Does the cognitive process of liking cheese also affect the genome?
Your idea seems, to me as informative as homeopathy: both of you have an idea that 'something' does 'something' but have yet to provide a mechanism for the 'something' doing 'something'.
To be specific homeopathy states that water can take to properties of another chemical even when there is no mechanism for the transfer of properties.
Homeopathy does not have a mechanism for this effect but they assert that the water has a memory.
You have no mechanism for the genome being effected but you assert that it is empathy.
Does this make it any clearer why people are not patting you on the back and handing you a Nobel Prize?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by zi ko, posted 06-29-2011 12:21 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by zi ko, posted 06-30-2011 12:28 PM Larni has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 83 of 192 (622058)
06-30-2011 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Taq
06-29-2011 2:06 AM


Re: Falcfiability
"Epigenetics can in some cases producee permanent and inhertable changes. "
No, it can't.
Iquote from Wikipedia:
'These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations
In HGT mutations can take part, but also information can pave the way to new combinations that tend to be useful. ...Although epigenetics in multicellular organisms is generally thought to be a mechanism involved in differentiation, with epigenetic patterns "reset" when organisms reproduce, there have been some observations of transgenerational epigenetic inheritance (e.g., the phenomenon of paramutation observed in maize). Although most of these multigenerational epigenetic traits are gradually lost over several generations, the possibility remains that multigenerational epigenetics could be another aspect to evolution and adaptation.....Epigenetic changes have also been observed to occur in response to environmental exposurefor example, mice given some dietary supplements have epigenetic changes affecting expression of the agouti gene, which affects their fur color, weight, and propensity to develop cancer.
More than 100 cases of transgenerational epigenetic inheritance phenomena have been reported in a wide range of organisms, including prokaryotes, plants, and animals. '
HGT is random with respect to fitness as exemplified by ERV's found in the human genome.
"My 'ramblings' can be put under falsifiability procedure."
So what are the falsifications?
My theory about empathy ca be tested as right or wrong so the theory can be substantiated or not. Your randommness theory in evolution as the only way, is a belief , so it is not falsfiable, and so incoplete .
"It is nice to hear that information reaches to the cell and is handled by it , through DNA sequence. Its a good start we agree at."
Where it concerns evolution, information is transferred through natural selection. This is the process by which random mutations are filtered through environmental information.
When Darwin says that he shares in some cases Lamarcks ideas, you can't mean that he meant he shared Lamarck's ideas of natural selection!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Taq, posted 06-29-2011 2:06 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Taq, posted 06-30-2011 4:36 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 84 of 192 (622060)
06-30-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Taq
06-29-2011 2:08 AM


Re: Empathy is atype of information
"There is not empathy in bacteria, but there are chemicals, the enginnering systems (precursors of neural tissue) and maybe others as well."
So show us how these engineering systems guide mutations so that they only produce specific beneficial mutations in a given environment, and only those mutations.
I suggest an article by James Shapiro THE THIRD WAY (wikipedia)
Nobody says that mutations can not be detrimental in spite of 'information function driven evolution'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Taq, posted 06-29-2011 2:08 AM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 85 of 192 (622061)
06-30-2011 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Taq
06-29-2011 2:09 AM


Re: Information's role
[qs] "I don't denay natural selection. But i don't think is the only way. "
Then demonstrate, WITH DATA, what the other way is. "
The THIRD WAY.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Taq, posted 06-29-2011 2:09 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-30-2011 12:13 PM zi ko has replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 86 of 192 (622065)
06-30-2011 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by zi ko
06-30-2011 12:05 PM


Re: Information's role
zi ko writes:
"I don't denay natural selection. But i don't think is the only way. "
Then demonstrate, WITH DATA, what the other way is. "
The THIRD WAY.
Your reply appears to be missing something. I think that it's called data.

Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric
Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by zi ko, posted 06-30-2011 12:05 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by zi ko, posted 06-30-2011 12:36 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 87 of 192 (622066)
06-30-2011 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Taq
06-29-2011 2:11 AM


Re: DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
"Not only by natural selection.By direct influence from environment(namely through information) as well , according to epigenesis to Shapiro, Barbara wright, Yablonka, Pigliucci, Weismann (father of MD theory), Darwin. "
Epigenesis DOES NOT CHANGE THE DNA SEQUENCE. Chimps and humans are different because our DNA sequences are different. Therefore, your theory is meaningless for explaining the differences between species. IOW, your theory is useless as it relates to evolution.
The above mentioned know how environment CAN affect species evolution , you can learn from them.
Perhaps you can legitimally criticise only my propose of empathy's role in evolution.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Taq, posted 06-29-2011 2:11 AM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 88 of 192 (622068)
06-30-2011 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Larni
06-29-2011 5:55 AM


Re: Information's role
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Information's role
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I don't understand is why you think empathy is anything other than a cognitive process.
Does the cognitive process of liking cheese also affect the genome?
Your idea seems, to me as informative as homeopathy: both of you have an idea that 'something' does 'something' but have yet to provide a mechanism for the 'something' doing 'something'.
To be specific homeopathy states that water can take to properties of another chemical even when there is no mechanism for the transfer of properties.
Homeopathy does not have a mechanism for this effect but they assert that the water has a memory.
You have no mechanism for the genome being effected but you assert that it is empathy.
Does this make it any clearer why people are not patting you on the back and handing you a Nobel Prize?
As informations role is gradually and finally being accepted, empathy will inevitably the next step. At the moment is a proposition.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Larni, posted 06-29-2011 5:55 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Larni, posted 06-30-2011 4:29 PM zi ko has not replied
 Message 92 by Taq, posted 06-30-2011 4:38 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 89 of 192 (622069)
06-30-2011 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ZenMonkey
06-30-2011 12:13 PM


Re: Information's role
zi ko writes:
"I don't denay natural selection. But i don't think is the only way. "
Then demonstrate, WITH DATA, what the other way is.
"The THIRD WAY."
Your reply appears to be missing something. I think that it's called data.
You can find the data in J. Shapiro's THIRD WAY.(wikipedia).
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-30-2011 12:13 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 90 of 192 (622098)
06-30-2011 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by zi ko
06-30-2011 12:28 PM


Re: Information's role
I'm really sorry but conversing with you is going to give me diabetes; so I'll sign off by calling you a fucking moron i.e. as dull as a bent spoon and bid you good day.
Edited by Larni, : Added clarity to insult.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by zi ko, posted 06-30-2011 12:28 PM zi ko has not replied

  
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