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Author | Topic: Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
Iquote from Wikipedia: 'These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations Yes, multiple generations as in 3-5 generations, at most. That is not permanent. Epigenetics deals with DNA methylation and histone packaging, not with DNA sequence.
In HGT mutations can take part, but also information can pave the way to new combinations that tend to be useful. They can also pave the way to new combinations that are neutral and detrimental with respect to fitness, otherwise known as random mutations.
Epigenetic changes have also been observed to occur in response to environmental exposurefor example, mice given some dietary supplements have epigenetic changes affecting expression of the agouti gene, which affects their fur color, weight, and propensity to develop cancer. A change in gene expression is not the same as DNA mutation.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
As informations role is gradually and finally being accepted, empathy will inevitably the next step. Not until you demonstrate a mechanism by which emotions in the brain can cause specific mutations in sperm and ova. Where is that mechanism?
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
"Iquote from Wikipedia: 'These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations' " Yes, multiple generations as in 3-5 generations, at most. That is not permanent. Epigenetics deals with DNA methylation and histone packaging, not with DNA sequence. 1. If in mean time a mutation happens there is permanent genotypic and phenotypic change.2.Epigenetic changes accumulating and lasting for 3-5 generations push organism for mutations at a special direction, or /and increasing mutation rate and consequently,if we stick to randomn mutations, to" chose" the beneficial ones This choosing is coordinated by genome environment. So the result isin any case, function driven evolution. Sticking in randomness becomes an act of plain belief, as it cannot be proved by testing. 3. Same information passed empathecly over many generations on widespread species numbers it is propable to have special affect, maybe permanent, on genome. Nobody knows for sure that this new notion is wright or wrong. Research will show. Blind belief to one or other direction doesn' help.
"In HGT mutations can take part, but also information can pave the way to new combinations that tend to be useful." They can also pave the way to new combinations that are neutral and detrimental with respect to fitness, otherwise known as random mutations. As my theory does not exclude randomn mutations it can go along with mathematicians 'who argue that, if every mutation were really random and had to be tested against the environment for selection or rejection, there would not have been enough time to evolve the extremely complex biochemical networks and regulatory mechanisms found in organisms today. ( Barbara Wright). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
"As informations role is gradually and finally being accepted, empathy will inevitably be the next step. " Not until you demonstrate a mechanism by which emotions in the brain can cause specific mutations in sperm and ova. Where is that mechanism? By the time information's role and mechanisms will establish, the only thing i have to prove is the existance of empathy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
1. If in mean time a mutation happens there is permanent genotypic and phenotypic change.
DNA mutation is NOT epigenetics.
2.Epigenetic changes accumulating and lasting for 3-5 generations push organism for mutations at a special direction, or /and increasing mutation rate and consequently,if we stick to randomn mutations, to" chose" the beneficial ones This choosing is coordinated by genome environment. So the result isin any case, function driven evolution. Sticking in randomness becomes an act of plain belief, as it cannot be proved by testing.
The organism does not choose to only produce beneficial mutations. You are making stuff up.
As my theory does not exclude randomn mutations it can go along with mathematicians 'who argue that, if every mutation were really random and had to be tested against the environment for selection or rejection, there would not have been enough time to evolve the extremely complex biochemical networks and regulatory mechanisms found in organisms today. ( Barbara Wright). And where is the data to back up this claim?
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
By the time information's role and mechanisms will establish, the only thing i have to prove is the existance of empathy.
That mechanism has already been established. The flow of information in evolution moves from the environment to the population's genome through natural selection. It has nothing to do with empathy. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
"1. If in mean time a mutation happens there is permanent genotypic and phenotypic change." DNA mutation is NOT epigenetics. It is an example( from wikipedia) in how epigenetically acquired traits are incorporated to DNA.
"2.Epigenetic changes accumulating and lasting for 3-5 generations push organism for mutations at a special direction, or /and increasing mutation rate and consequently,if we stick to randomn mutations, to" choose" the beneficial ones This choosing is coordinated by genome environment. So the result is in any case, function driven evolution. Sticking in randomness becomes an act of plain belief, as it cannot be proved by testing."' The organism does not choose to only produce beneficial mutations. You are making stuff up. 'Choosing' and 'deciding' is according to Shapiro are intergrated functions of bacteria and higher organisms.
"As my theory does not exclude randomn mutations it can go along with mathematicians 'who argue that, if every mutation were really random and had to be tested against the environment for selection or rejection, there would not have been enough time to evolve the extremely complex biochemical networks and regulatory mechanisms found in organisms today. ( Barbara Wright). " And where is the data to back up this claim? This claim is made by a scientist. Where are the data to disclaim this?
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
"By the time information's role and mechanisms will establish, the only thing i have to prove is the existance of empathy. " That mechanism has already been established. The flow of information in evolution moves from the environment to the population's genome through natural selection. It has nothing to do with empathy. You ignore my arguments. I say Darwin himself and others contemporary to us scientists share Lamarcks wiews on evolution, who obviously thought his evolution theory based o information from environment in terms differrent than natural selection , Darwin did not always talk about evolution strictly in terms of natural selection and mutations. Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
I don't mean this type of information, but direct information, as that it takes place in epigenetics and asLamarck had thought it.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given. Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
I don't nean this type of information, but direct information, as that it takes place in epigenetics and as Lamarck had thought of it..
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
It is an example( from wikipedia) in how epigenetically acquired traits are incorporated to DNA.
It is not incorporated through a change in DNA sequence. Once again, the difference between humans and chimps is due to a difference in DNA SEQUENCE. It is NOT due to a difference in DNA methylation or histone packaging (i.e. epigenetics). If you are looking for information's role in evolution then you must explain the role of information at the sequence level, not the patterns of methylation.
'Choosing' and 'deciding' is according to Shapiro are intergrated functions of bacteria and higher organisms. One of the integrated functions that Shapiro points to is the SOS system in E. coli. In this system, the bacteria "decide" to increase their random mutation rate. This decision is quite mechanical and is triggered by DNA damage.
This claim is made by a scientist. Where are the data to disclaim this? Where is the data to back it up? Remember, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
You ignore my arguments. I say Darwin himself and others contemporary to us scientists share Lamarcks wiews on evolution, who obviously thought his evolution theory based o information from environment in terms differrent than natural selection , Darwin did not always talk about evolution strictly in terms of natural selection and mutations. If your argument is "because Darwin said so" then it should be ignored. Darwin got a lot wrong. We have moved past Darwin. Please fast forward from the 19th century to the 21st century.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Taq writes:
You ignore my arguments. I say Darwin himself and others contemporary to us scientists share Lamarcks wiews on evolution, who obviously thought his evolution theory based o information from environment in terms differrent than natural selection , Darwin did not always talk about evolution strictly in terms of natural selection and mutations. If your argument is "because Darwin said so" then it should be ignored. Darwin got a lot wrong. We have moved past Darwin. Please fast forward from the 19th century to the 21st century. Isaid Darwin and other contemporary scientists. I make the question more precise and i think it is very crucial to our discussion: 1. Do you think that epigenetic biologists ACCEPT OR NOT that environment affects genome in a wide sense? 2.If yes, by which mechanism? By neural system or other wise?( we are talking about eucaryotes). I hope for a clear answer.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Larni Member (Idle past 164 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Do you think that epigenetic biologists ACCEPT OR NOT that environment affects genome in a wide sense? Yes. By natural selection. Could you answer a question for me? What makes you think empathy is what affects evolution? Why not something else?
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Do you think that epigenetic biologists ACCEPT OR NOT that environment affects genome in a wide sense?
Yes. By natural selection. Could you answer a question for me? What makes you think empathy is what affects evolution? Why not something else? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Natural selection selects after genotype (by mutations) or phenotype (by paramutation ect) change. I mean direct effect. Empathy is a type of information connected with organism survival. It is usefull to life and i believe nature in its economy wouldn't let it to be wasted. Also nature loves continuity and empathy is an evolutional continuant of information. Empathy acting over long time periods on same genomic place can have a permanent effect . Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
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