Who designed the ID designer(s)?

Everybody, be nice and proper in your message content, or I may find the need to slap you into next week (aka, a big suspension).If you're late in seeing this message and you do wrong, better get on that edit button.Adminnemooseus (in the hair trigger mode)

Classic. No response to the point just a personal attack. You may have noticed if you had actually read my posts that I am not arguing the definition of Faith, I am claiming you are not adequately defining Evidence. Without knowing how you define the word Evidence your argument is meaningless. The schoolyard bully returns. You will notice most of us try to keep this a civil forum. When a bully like you shows up the only recourse is to go to the admins. I will not be abused, physically or verbally, by anyone, without taking the necessary recourse's available to me in order to end it.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

I simply feel no need nor desire to specifcally address any complete nonsequitor thrown my way. Especially from an overly intelligent person like yourself (who should know better). Wrong again, you beautiful genius.Speakers of english can use the word "evidence" in its colloquial sense and get an understanding of my position.The crux of the argument relies on what is meant by Faith, which you have wrong because of your misuse of the term "Evidence". I simply skipped right to the crux.Since you're such an honorable person, I'll just wait for when you go back and re-address my position that is still there waiting instead of taking this further into the wrong direction.But thank you for spending your valuable time on me, especially for being such a wonderful person as yourself, you must have so many better things to do.

FYI, These two personal insults in particular really hurt my feelings.

Exactly my point. Funny how you still refuse to define how you use the word evidence.Just because you are using the word in this manner does not mean iit is not a statement of faith.According to you all these are valid uses of evidence.The bible is evidence for a great flood.
Unexplainable lights are evidence of extraterrestrial visitations by Aliens.
Visions are evidence of ghosts and the afterlife.These are similar uses of evidence as your argument that belief in ID might not be based solely on faith.Finally, I knew I could count on you to lower the bar even further.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Exactly! What's so hard to understand about that?If some dude sees some lights in the sky and thinks they're aliens and comes to the conclusion that aliens exist, then it would be wrong to say that he has faith that aliens exist.He was convinced that aliens exist from evidence.That you don't want to consider that evidence, or that you want to call that bad evidence, is beside the point that he, himself, is not holding his position on faith but has come to a conclusion from something he observed. Just look it up in a dictionary...Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

Not at all. His belief is based upon a false interpretation of evidence. It is the fallacy of non-sequitur. The evidence does not support the belief. The evidence does not in any way support the conclusion. In most cases the evidence has nothing to do with the conclusion. Therefore, if the evidence does not support the conclusion, then the conclusion is based upon faith not evidence.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Absolutely not. Whether or not you have faith is not defined by the quality of the evidence, just whether you have any or not.Even a conclusion arrived at from bad evidence, or even poor logic, is still a position that was not arrived at via faith. It doesn't matter because the evidence convinced him, and he is the one holding the position... a position he did not use faith to arrive at, a position he concluded from bad evidence.

In ID faith is what makes them willing to accept the bad evidence. Also with the other examples it is a faith based conclusion.Gee a response without any attacks, bullying and general all around assholishness. I knew you could do it.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

How do you know that it isn't just plain stupidity? You can't read minds. It most certainly can be, no doubt. My contention is against the position that it must be. I do it all the time. I already explained to you that its your stupid idiocy that requires me making fun of you in order to have any desire to reply.

What does it mean to arrive a position via faith?You can take the claim of the truth of a position on faith.You can also make a leap of faith when there is insufficient evidence to know something.You can have faith in something for which there is no evidence, but it is more common to have faith in something for which there is some evidence but not a sufficient amount to know it. Even if you want to argue that 'religious faith' must be without any evidence (and often people will claims subjective or anecdotal evidence in support of their religious faith which would undercut even that argument), religion does not have a monopoly on faith.But I think more to the point, how important is this point?Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

I don't think its important at all, nor do I see why it would be contentious.Does the ID position have to have faith? No, it doesn't have to. BFD.

And it continues.Let everyone be aware that if you do not agree with CS you are a stupid idiot.Edited by Theodoric, : new subtitle

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

When you can't defend your position anymore just avoid discussing it. I've disagreed with tons of people without thinking they're stupid idiots... except for the ones who are stupid idiots.Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director