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Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 91 of 192 (622101)
06-30-2011 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by zi ko
06-30-2011 11:48 AM


Re: Falcfiability
Iquote from Wikipedia:
'These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations
Yes, multiple generations as in 3-5 generations, at most. That is not permanent. Epigenetics deals with DNA methylation and histone packaging, not with DNA sequence.
In HGT mutations can take part, but also information can pave the way to new combinations that tend to be useful.
They can also pave the way to new combinations that are neutral and detrimental with respect to fitness, otherwise known as random mutations.
Epigenetic changes have also been observed to occur in response to environmental exposurefor example, mice given some dietary supplements have epigenetic changes affecting expression of the agouti gene, which affects their fur color, weight, and propensity to develop cancer.
A change in gene expression is not the same as DNA mutation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by zi ko, posted 06-30-2011 11:48 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by zi ko, posted 07-01-2011 2:21 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 92 of 192 (622102)
06-30-2011 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by zi ko
06-30-2011 12:28 PM


Re: Information's role
As informations role is gradually and finally being accepted, empathy will inevitably the next step.
Not until you demonstrate a mechanism by which emotions in the brain can cause specific mutations in sperm and ova. Where is that mechanism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by zi ko, posted 06-30-2011 12:28 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by zi ko, posted 07-01-2011 2:30 PM Taq has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 93 of 192 (622182)
07-01-2011 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Taq
06-30-2011 4:36 PM


Re: Falcifiability
"Iquote from Wikipedia:
'These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations' "
Yes, multiple generations as in 3-5 generations, at most. That is not permanent. Epigenetics deals with DNA methylation and histone packaging, not with DNA sequence.
1. If in mean time a mutation happens there is permanent genotypic and phenotypic change.
2.Epigenetic changes accumulating and lasting for 3-5 generations push organism for mutations at a special direction, or /and increasing mutation rate and consequently,if we stick to randomn mutations, to" chose" the beneficial ones This choosing is coordinated by genome environment. So the result isin any case, function driven evolution. Sticking in randomness becomes an act of plain belief, as it cannot be proved by testing.
3. Same information passed empathecly over many generations on widespread species numbers it is propable to have special affect, maybe permanent, on genome. Nobody knows for sure that this new notion is wright or wrong. Research will show. Blind belief to one or other direction doesn' help.
"In HGT mutations can take part, but also information can pave the way to new combinations that tend to be useful."
They can also pave the way to new combinations that are neutral and detrimental with respect to fitness, otherwise known as random mutations.
As my theory does not exclude randomn mutations it can go along with mathematicians 'who argue that, if every mutation were really random and had to be tested against the environment for selection or rejection, there would not have been enough time to evolve the extremely complex biochemical networks and regulatory mechanisms found in organisms today. ( Barbara Wright).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Taq, posted 06-30-2011 4:36 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Taq, posted 07-01-2011 3:53 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 94 of 192 (622184)
07-01-2011 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Taq
06-30-2011 4:38 PM


Re: Information's role
"As informations role is gradually and finally being accepted, empathy will inevitably be the next step. "
Not until you demonstrate a mechanism by which emotions in the brain can cause specific mutations in sperm and ova. Where is that mechanism?
By the time information's role and mechanisms will establish, the only thing i have to prove is the existance of empathy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Taq, posted 06-30-2011 4:38 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Taq, posted 07-01-2011 3:54 PM zi ko has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 95 of 192 (622204)
07-01-2011 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by zi ko
07-01-2011 2:21 PM


Re: Falcifiability
1. If in mean time a mutation happens there is permanent genotypic and phenotypic change.
DNA mutation is NOT epigenetics.
2.Epigenetic changes accumulating and lasting for 3-5 generations push organism for mutations at a special direction, or /and increasing mutation rate and consequently,if we stick to randomn mutations, to" chose" the beneficial ones This choosing is coordinated by genome environment. So the result isin any case, function driven evolution. Sticking in randomness becomes an act of plain belief, as it cannot be proved by testing.
The organism does not choose to only produce beneficial mutations. You are making stuff up.
As my theory does not exclude randomn mutations it can go along with mathematicians 'who argue that, if every mutation were really random and had to be tested against the environment for selection or rejection, there would not have been enough time to evolve the extremely complex biochemical networks and regulatory mechanisms found in organisms today. ( Barbara Wright).
And where is the data to back up this claim?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by zi ko, posted 07-01-2011 2:21 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by zi ko, posted 07-02-2011 11:13 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 96 of 192 (622205)
07-01-2011 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by zi ko
07-01-2011 2:30 PM


Re: Information's role
By the time information's role and mechanisms will establish, the only thing i have to prove is the existance of empathy.
That mechanism has already been established. The flow of information in evolution moves from the environment to the population's genome through natural selection. It has nothing to do with empathy.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by zi ko, posted 07-01-2011 2:30 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by zi ko, posted 07-02-2011 11:31 AM Taq has replied
 Message 99 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 11:34 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 100 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 11:38 PM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 97 of 192 (622323)
07-02-2011 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Taq
07-01-2011 3:53 PM


Re: Falcifiability
"1. If in mean time a mutation happens there is permanent genotypic and phenotypic change."
DNA mutation is NOT epigenetics.
It is an example( from wikipedia) in how epigenetically acquired traits are incorporated to DNA.
"2.Epigenetic changes accumulating and lasting for 3-5 generations push organism for mutations at a special direction, or /and increasing mutation rate and consequently,if we stick to randomn mutations, to" choose" the beneficial ones This choosing is coordinated by genome environment. So the result is in any case, function driven evolution. Sticking in randomness becomes an act of plain belief, as it cannot be proved by testing."'
The organism does not choose to only produce beneficial mutations. You are making stuff up.
'Choosing' and 'deciding' is according to Shapiro are intergrated functions of bacteria and higher organisms.
"As my theory does not exclude randomn mutations it can go along with mathematicians 'who argue that, if every mutation were really random and had to be tested against the environment for selection or rejection, there would not have been enough time to evolve the extremely complex biochemical networks and regulatory mechanisms found in organisms today. ( Barbara Wright). "
And where is the data to back up this claim?
This claim is made by a scientist. Where are the data to disclaim this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Taq, posted 07-01-2011 3:53 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Taq, posted 07-07-2011 11:45 PM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 98 of 192 (622326)
07-02-2011 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Taq
07-01-2011 3:54 PM


Re: Information's role
"By the time information's role and mechanisms will establish, the only thing i have to prove is the existance of empathy. "
That mechanism has already been established. The flow of information in evolution moves from the environment to the population's genome through natural selection. It has nothing to do with empathy.
You ignore my arguments. I say Darwin himself and others contemporary to us scientists share Lamarcks wiews on evolution, who obviously thought his evolution theory based o information from environment in terms differrent than natural selection , Darwin did not always talk about evolution strictly in terms of natural selection and mutations.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Taq, posted 07-01-2011 3:54 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Taq, posted 07-07-2011 11:47 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 99 of 192 (623048)
07-07-2011 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Taq
07-01-2011 3:54 PM


Re: Information's role
I don't mean this type of information, but direct information, as that it takes place in epigenetics and asLamarck had thought it.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Taq, posted 07-01-2011 3:54 PM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 100 of 192 (623049)
07-07-2011 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Taq
07-01-2011 3:54 PM


Re: Information's role
I don't nean this type of information, but direct information, as that it takes place in epigenetics and as Lamarck had thought of it..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Taq, posted 07-01-2011 3:54 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 101 of 192 (623051)
07-07-2011 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by zi ko
07-02-2011 11:13 AM


Re: Falcifiability
It is an example( from wikipedia) in how epigenetically acquired traits are incorporated to DNA.
It is not incorporated through a change in DNA sequence. Once again, the difference between humans and chimps is due to a difference in DNA SEQUENCE. It is NOT due to a difference in DNA methylation or histone packaging (i.e. epigenetics). If you are looking for information's role in evolution then you must explain the role of information at the sequence level, not the patterns of methylation.
'Choosing' and 'deciding' is according to Shapiro are intergrated functions of bacteria and higher organisms.
One of the integrated functions that Shapiro points to is the SOS system in E. coli. In this system, the bacteria "decide" to increase their random mutation rate. This decision is quite mechanical and is triggered by DNA damage.
This claim is made by a scientist. Where are the data to disclaim this?
Where is the data to back it up? Remember, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by zi ko, posted 07-02-2011 11:13 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 102 of 192 (623052)
07-07-2011 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by zi ko
07-02-2011 11:31 AM


Re: Information's role
You ignore my arguments. I say Darwin himself and others contemporary to us scientists share Lamarcks wiews on evolution, who obviously thought his evolution theory based o information from environment in terms differrent than natural selection , Darwin did not always talk about evolution strictly in terms of natural selection and mutations.
If your argument is "because Darwin said so" then it should be ignored. Darwin got a lot wrong. We have moved past Darwin. Please fast forward from the 19th century to the 21st century.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by zi ko, posted 07-02-2011 11:31 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by zi ko, posted 07-09-2011 11:46 AM Taq has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 103 of 192 (623319)
07-09-2011 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Taq
07-07-2011 11:47 PM


Re: I need clear answers
Taq writes:
You ignore my arguments. I say Darwin himself and others contemporary to us scientists share Lamarcks wiews on evolution, who obviously thought his evolution theory based o information from environment in terms differrent than natural selection , Darwin did not always talk about evolution strictly in terms of natural selection and mutations.
If your argument is "because Darwin said so" then it should be ignored. Darwin got a lot wrong. We have moved past Darwin. Please fast forward from the 19th century to the 21st century.
Isaid Darwin and other contemporary scientists.
I make the question more precise and i think it is very crucial to our discussion:
1. Do you think that epigenetic biologists ACCEPT OR NOT that environment affects genome in a wide sense?
2.If yes, by which mechanism? By neural system or other wise?
( we are talking about eucaryotes).
I hope for a clear answer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Taq, posted 07-07-2011 11:47 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Larni, posted 07-09-2011 2:02 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 112 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 12:38 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 104 of 192 (623335)
07-09-2011 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by zi ko
07-09-2011 11:46 AM


Re: I need clear answers
Do you think that epigenetic biologists ACCEPT OR NOT that environment affects genome in a wide sense?
Yes.
By natural selection.
Could you answer a question for me?
What makes you think empathy is what affects evolution?
Why not something else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by zi ko, posted 07-09-2011 11:46 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by zi ko, posted 07-09-2011 4:56 PM Larni has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 105 of 192 (623362)
07-09-2011 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Larni
07-09-2011 2:02 PM


Re: I need clear answers
Do you think that epigenetic biologists ACCEPT OR NOT that environment affects genome in a wide sense?
Yes.
By natural selection.
Could you answer a question for me?
What makes you think empathy is what affects evolution?
Why not something else?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Natural selection selects after genotype (by mutations) or phenotype (by paramutation ect) change. I mean direct effect.
Empathy is a type of information connected with organism survival.
It is usefull to life and i believe nature in its economy wouldn't let it to be wasted. Also nature loves continuity and empathy is an evolutional continuant of information.
Empathy acting over long time periods on same genomic place can have a permanent effect .
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Larni, posted 07-09-2011 2:02 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Larni, posted 07-10-2011 5:49 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 113 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 12:46 AM zi ko has not replied

  
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