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Author Topic:   Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 691 of 760 (622666)
07-05-2011 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 685 by shadow71
07-05-2011 5:04 PM


Re: Natural Engineering
shadow71 writes:
Obviously I cannot prove that, nor can you disprove it.
Hypotheses that can't be proved or disproved, i.e., cannot be tested, are not science.
WK brought out a good point, that while CRISPR spacer insertion results in beneficial mutations, it also results in many non-beneficial mutations. Those bacteria receiving the beneficial mutations become better represented in later generations. Throwing spacers at random in and around the proximal point of gene loci is better than completely random mutations of any type anywhere, but doesn't in any way resemble an intelligent designer personally splicing the spacers in at precisely the right place. It much more resembles what a process of trial and error might come up with as a modest improvement over completely random. In other words, CRISPR spacer insertion is a Rube Goldberg kind of device, not an elegant design carefully rendered by an intelligent designer.
--Percy

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Replies to this message:
 Message 692 by Wounded King, posted 07-06-2011 4:54 AM Percy has replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 692 of 760 (622704)
07-06-2011 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 691 by Percy
07-05-2011 9:14 PM


Random or not?
Throwing spacers at random in and around the proximal point of gene loci is better than completely random mutations of any type anywhere
Just to clarify, I don't think the insertion site into the bacterial genome is as non-specific as you seem to be making out here, although it may be and it is certainly subject to errors since the review details cases where the CRISPR locus has lost its leader sequence and consequently cannot incorporate new spacers or initiate the immunity effect. My main point is that the PAM motifs are not highly specific. As an example I searched the genome of Enterobacteria phage lambda for the NNGGNG motif and got 748 hits just for that one motif, the longer motif (NNAGAAW) has 111 matches.
I certainly see no reason why a substantial bacterial population, probably in the millions or billions of cells, couldn't rapidly incorporate all of such a small number of protospacer sequences into the complementary CRISPR locus for that PAM.
Reading another review (Al-Attar et al., 2011) brings up a particularly relevant point ...
Al-Attar et al. writes:
Investigating the spacer content of the genomes of more than 13 crenarchaeal acidothermophiles and the genome of S. thermophilus suggested that proto-spacers are integrated into the CRISPR array randomly and irrespective of strand polarity (Shah et al., 2009; Mills et al., 2010). Similar findings were also made in Escherichia and Salmonella (Touchon and Rocha, 2010). These findings contrast with early S. thermophilus results, which suggested that proto-spacers are not randomly selected (Deveau et al., 2008) and that PAMs mark potential proto-spacers. The presence of PAMs appears to be a general phenomenon among the CRISPR/Cas systems (Mojica et al., 2009). However, spacer uptake could still be a random process but only spacers corresponding to compatible PAMs are maintained in a population due to increased fitness of the host.
So in fact the PAM sequence may not have a role in which spacer sequences are incorporated but only in which persist.
TTFN,
WK
Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 691 by Percy, posted 07-05-2011 9:14 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by Percy, posted 07-06-2011 7:34 AM Wounded King has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 693 of 760 (622723)
07-06-2011 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 692 by Wounded King
07-06-2011 4:54 AM


Re: Random or not?
Wounded King writes:
Throwing spacers at random in and around the proximal point of gene loci is better than completely random mutations of any type anywhere
Just to clarify, I don't think the insertion site into the bacterial genome is as non-specific as you seem to be making out here...
I think I arrived at that interpretation after reading things like this in the paper (The CRISPR system: small RNA-guided defense in bacteria and archaea): "In each case, as predicted by evolutionary analyses, the insertion(s) occurred proximal to the leader." The paper uses the word "proximal" a lot, and I interpreted that to mean that insertion is not at a very specific point, but at a point near a very specific point, i.e., the leader.
The excerpt you quoted from Al-Attar et al., 2011 seems to be saying somewhat the same thing: "...suggested that proto-spacers are integrated into the CRISPR array randomly and irrespective of strand polarity (Shah et al., 2009; Mills et al., 2010). Similar findings were also made in Escherichia and Salmonella (Touchon and Rocha, 2010)."
I grant the ambiguity, and I'm aware of my greater potential for drawing incorrect conclusions in a field where I'm a foreigner, but my interpretation is also consistent with what we know of evolution and life itself as a messy and error-prone process.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Add forgotten parenthesis, add a clarifying leading clause to the last sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 692 by Wounded King, posted 07-06-2011 4:54 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by Wounded King, posted 07-06-2011 8:48 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 694 of 760 (622736)
07-06-2011 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 693 by Percy
07-06-2011 7:34 AM


Re: Random or not?
The paper uses the word "proximal" a lot, and I interpreted that to mean that insertion is not at a very specific point, but at a point near a very specific point, i.e., the leader.
As I understand it the system is more specific than that and new spacer sequences and their accompanying repeat sequence are incorporated directly adjacent to the leader sequence (Figure 2, Karginov and Hannon, 2010). In this case proximal and distal are being used to describe the distance of elements from the leader sequence.
The things from Al-Attar et al. are in reference to the nature of the proto-spacer sequences themselves in their native genomic context, they don't seem to favour any particular type of sequence and they have no apparent bias for a particular DNA strand.
The conclusion to the Shah paper states ...
Shah et al. writes:
The results demonstrate that CRISPR spacer matches are uniformly distributed throughout the virus/plasmid genomes, regardless of both gene location and degree of gene conservation. Moreover, there is no significant bias to either sense or antisense strands of genes (with the exception of STIV): both strands are targeted to an equal degree.
The orientation in which they are incorporated into the CRISPR locus is apparently determined by the orientation of the PAM sequence. Though given the other speculation in that paper perhaps we should term it the orientation that confers a fitness effect from the spacer.
It may also be the case that there are a whole lot of cases selected against where the spacer inserted into another region entirely or into a distal region of the CRISPR locus or on the wrong side of the leader. The actual existence of such cases seems purely hypothetical at the moment and there is nothing in the literature we have discussed to suggest it.
life itself as a messy and error-prone process
Ain't that the truth!
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 693 by Percy, posted 07-06-2011 7:34 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

zi ko
Member (Idle past 3640 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 695 of 760 (622805)
07-06-2011 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by jar
07-03-2011 10:14 AM


Re: Natural Engineering
jar writes:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The CRISPR system is an elegant, effective, and fluid mechanism of defense against foreign genetic elements (Fig. 4). It is rightly described as an adaptive immune system, which evolved long before its famed namesake. Interestingly, CRISPR's ability to acquire a resistance phenotype and pass it to progeny could be construed an example of a soft, or Lamarckian, mode of inheritance. One could also view this from a conventional Darwinian perspective, where pressure exerted by the environment simply selects the fittest. However, armed with knowledge of the molecular basis of this response, CRISPR-cas does seem to fit more firmly with a Lamarckian paradigm, in essence because increases in fitness do not rely on random mutations but on a much more specific acquisition of genetic information from environmental sources.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mentions "dedicated, nonrandom, beneficial change"?
But he says that... CRISPR is inherited to progeny.....and seems to fit with Lamarckian paradigm...not relying on random mutations... but on genetic information from environment sources.Do you agree with these?

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

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 Message 657 by jar, posted 07-03-2011 10:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 696 by jar, posted 07-06-2011 3:13 PM zi ko has not replied
 Message 700 by Taq, posted 07-07-2011 11:18 AM zi ko has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 696 of 760 (622806)
07-06-2011 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 695 by zi ko
07-06-2011 3:11 PM


Re: Natural Engineering
No, I do not agree that it says or implies what you seem to allege that it says by quote mining the passage and taking pieces parts out of context.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2954 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 697 of 760 (622852)
07-06-2011 7:37 PM


Towards a new evolutinary theory
We have discussed Pigluicci's ES paper and he concludes that the theory of evolution does not need a new paradigm. Here is a paper entitled:
"Towards a New Evolutionary Theory" by Julio E Perez, Carmen Alfonsi & Carlos Muflioz who come to a different conclusion from Pigluicci while discussing mostly the same processes not addressed in the MS.
here is the link:
Interciencia – Revista Interciencia
Here is the conclusion that I throw out for discussion.
Perez et. al. writes:
Though widely accepted as the official scientific explanation for evolution, exerting great influence on both our interpretation of biodiversity and our understanding of the world, modern synthesis lacks some major elements, to wit: endosymbiosis, reticulate evolution, the modern synthesis of embryonic development and evolution (evo-devo), epigenesis, phenotypic plasticity, evolvability; which involve several evolutionary mechanisms such as: fusion of genomes and gene fragments, methylation of DNA, tool kits, regulatiory cis-elements, hybridization and polyploidy. It is also necessary to include different sources of genetic variation, not only mutations. All this knowledge underscores the necessity to develop a new evolutionary theory, a coherent alternative to modern synthesis.
Evolution can occur incrementally through small changes (genetic drift and natural selection) or abruptly through hybridization, endosymbiosis, and changes in gene regulation. The environment plays an important role in the evolution of organisms, through epigenesis. Current knowledge allows for the rejection of the central dogma of biology. Although it seems that the study of macroevolution is not an extrapolation and magnification of the events that occur within populations and species, these events cannot be decoupled, since the population in which macroevolution occurs is the same population that evolves at the microevolutionary level.
Evolutionary innovations do not seem to arise at random; on the contrary, they seem to have originated from non-random processes based on the epigenetic system. As a consequence of these developments, especially that of epigenetic inheritance, a new and wider definition of evolution seems necessary, one that would be the result of several mechanisms that change both the genetic and epigenetic compositions of populations.
The integration of evo-devo with the synthetic theory seems difficult or impossible. The synthetic theory is based mainly on population dynamics, on the correlation of phenotypic variation with statistical gene frequencies in populations, whereas evo-devo explains phenotypic change through alterations in developmental mechanisms, whether they are adaptive or not.
As a final conclusion, we think that a new evolutionary theory is needed.
Any opinions on whether these scientists are correct or Pigluicci is correct. Does the MS include the issues mentioned here as part of what Percy says is Darwin + genetics? Or does the theory of evolution need a modficaton, a new paradigm, that includes and explains:
Endosymbiosis
Reticulate evolution
Embryonic devopment and evo-devo
epigenesis
Phenotypic plasticity
Evolvability etc.?
Edited by Admin, : Fix formatting.

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-06-2011 10:48 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 703 by Taq, posted 07-07-2011 11:38 AM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 704 by molbiogirl, posted 07-07-2011 11:40 AM shadow71 has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 698 of 760 (622857)
07-06-2011 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by shadow71
07-06-2011 7:37 PM


Re: Towards a new evolutinary theory
Or does the theory of evolution need a modficaton, a new paradigm, that includes and explains:
Endosymbiosis
Reticulate evolution
Embryonic devopment and evo-devo
epigenesis
Phenotypic plasticity
Evolvability etc.?
The theory of evolution does include those things, and therefore does not need to be modified to include them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by shadow71, posted 07-06-2011 7:37 PM shadow71 has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 699 of 760 (622906)
07-07-2011 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 650 by zi ko
07-01-2011 10:18 PM


Re: Re:information role
I said everything has its time. Do you thing it is clever to change the meaning of my answers?
I didn't change the meaning of your answer. You are complaining that I keep asking for evidence and mechanisms to back your claims. I am asking why a scientist should not do this. Can you answer the question or not? Or are you saying that scientists should accept something as fact simply because someone claims it?
Isaid that the mechanisms are the same that are accepted by
Darwin and Weismann.
And those are . . . ?
My hypothesis is testable.
How?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 700 of 760 (622908)
07-07-2011 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 695 by zi ko
07-06-2011 3:11 PM


Re: Natural Engineering
But he says that... CRISPR is inherited to progeny.....and seems to fit with Lamarckian paradigm...not relying on random mutations... but on genetic information from environment sources.Do you agree with these?
I would agree.
Would you also agree that the mechanisms which produce mutations in the CRISPR genes do not cause mutations throughout the rest of the genome? I can look back, but I would hazard a guess that the CRISPR region takes up less than 10k bases. This is less than 1% of the genome, and much less than that if we only include the features within the CRISPR regions that are actually mutated by these mechanisms. So we are still seeing more than 99% of the genome mutated by random mutations. Wouldn't you agree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by zi ko, posted 07-06-2011 3:11 PM zi ko has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 701 of 760 (622910)
07-07-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by shadow71
07-04-2011 12:15 PM


Re: Natural Engineering
Do you disagree with the findings that the CRISPR System they discuss is a dedicated, nonrandom and beneficial system?
Do you disagree that the CRISPR system only produces mutations within the CRISPR DNA? Do you also agree that eukaryotes like ourselves lack CRISPR regions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by shadow71, posted 07-04-2011 12:15 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 705 by shadow71, posted 07-07-2011 1:28 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 702 of 760 (622912)
07-07-2011 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 675 by zi ko
07-04-2011 5:21 PM


Re: Natural Engineering
What science seems to accept as most propable:
Are these mechanisms that evolve to facilitate more rapid adaptation in bacteria the result of
a) random mutations and natural selection only.
b) innate orders put by Supernatural being in order life to be preserved.
c) innate orders passed to bacteria from the Information system which rules over Substance in life's substance-information dipole.
You are blinded to the larger picture. Why are E. coli different than Salmonella enterica? It isn't due to differences in CRISPR insertions. It is due to the differences in the rest of the genome, differences that are produced through the processes of random mutation followed by selection. Remember, the theory of evolution is trying to explain why species are different from each other.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 703 of 760 (622915)
07-07-2011 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 697 by shadow71
07-06-2011 7:37 PM


Re: Towards a new evolutinary theory
Or does the theory of evolution need a modficaton, a new paradigm, that includes and explains:
Endosymbiosis
How do you think a symbiotic relationship is created other than through random mutation and natural selection?
Reticulate evolution
How is this a problem for the modern theory? Last I checked, the modern theory happily accepts hybridization.
Embryonic devopment and evo-devo
Darwin cited embryonic development as one of the strongest evidences of evolution, and the evo in evo-devo is in reference to the modern theory of evolution.
epigenesis
Epigenesis is not responsible for the differences seen between species, the thing that theory of evolution is trying to explain. The differences between humans and chimps is not due to epigenetics.
Phenotypic plasticity
You mean the plasticity made possible by the random mutations that have been filtered through natural selection?
Evolvability etc.?
What about it?

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2662 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 704 of 760 (622917)
07-07-2011 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 697 by shadow71
07-06-2011 7:37 PM


You're really reaching now
Interciencia? A backwater Venuzuelan "journal" that ranks below journals from Nigeria, Bulgaria & Tunisia in cites? A "journal" that ranks 16,154 out of 18,750? A "journal" whose scientific influence is rated at .03 (compared to Nature whose scientific influence is rated at 17,588)? Source.
You wanna know who else has a scientific influence rating of .03? International Tinnitus Journal, Saudi Dental Journal & Indian Journal of Sexually Transmitted Diseases.
And a paper that hasn't been cited? At all? Ever?
By an author whose paper The Risks of Tilapia Culture in Venuzeula got more cites than the paper you quoted?
By an author who, in nearly 30 years of publishing, manages, at best, 2 cites for one of his papers on aquaculture?
Way to pick em, dude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by shadow71, posted 07-06-2011 7:37 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by shadow71, posted 07-07-2011 1:31 PM molbiogirl has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2954 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 705 of 760 (622944)
07-07-2011 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 701 by Taq
07-07-2011 11:25 AM


Re: Natural Engineering
Taq writes:
Do you disagree that the CRISPR system only produces mutations within the CRISPR DNA? Do you also agree that eukaryotes like ourselves lack CRISPR regions?
I have no basis to disagree with those statements. But I understand the CRISPR Systems were not discovered until apporx 1987.
There is now more research in the area, so perhaps new discoveries will be forthcoming.
Do you disagree with the findings that the CRISPR System discussed in the paper is dedicated, nonrandom and beneficial?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by Taq, posted 07-07-2011 11:25 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 708 by Percy, posted 07-07-2011 2:29 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 709 by Taq, posted 07-08-2011 12:05 AM shadow71 has replied

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