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Author Topic:   Jesus's Prophecy Of His Gospel
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 67 (62283)
10-23-2003 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
10-23-2003 1:12 AM


To add to Holmes'reply this seems to be a simple case of self-aggrandisement. Isn't being a cult leader all about making grandiose claims ?
And as has already been shown the Oliver discourse appears to predict an imminent apocalypse, leaving no time for the word to spread to lands unknwon at the time.
To deal with osme of the specific points raised, the claim that the disciples were nearly all executed is a very LATE tradition with no support from even nearly contemporary times (older traditions have most of them surviving).
Roman persecution was sporadic - sometimes severe but frequently non-existent, and it is Roman patronage from the time of Constantine that is responsible for much of the success of Christianity.
The sect was already widespread into gentile lands by the time Jerusalem was destroyed. It is hardly clear that Jerusalem acted as a genuine central authority. The early church seems to have been highly decentralised and this structure may well date back to before the fall of Jerusalem.
So the odds against success are not so bad as it seems. The odds are even better when it is realised that if the sort of claim involved is quite common - it would only take one success to produce a prophecy that *seems* impressive. Without knowing how many fledgeling religions made similar claims and failed we do not have a true picture of the real situation.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 67 (62355)
10-23-2003 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Buzsaw
10-23-2003 11:28 AM


This sort of distortion simply weakens your case. The prophecy was supposed to be fulflled before the end, and that's it. If the end as predicted does not occur, then the only way it could be held to have failed is if Christianity died out altogether - and who would care then ?
There are other problems I could point out, but it is certainly true that there is no World Government nor any likelihood of a World Government in the forseeable future. If it were really true that these events were to happen "at a specified time" we cannot judge it a success and must consider it very likely to fail.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 67 (62366)
10-23-2003 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by zephyr
10-23-2003 12:31 PM


It's from Daniel (and therefore refers to the second Century B.C.)

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 20 of 67 (62525)
10-24-2003 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
10-24-2003 12:44 AM


The problem is that some cults DO survive to become world religions.
If it is almost ineviable that some will then it follows that it is not necessary for there to be anything really special about those that do, any more then there needs to be anything special about a lottery winner. THere may well be relevant mundane factors, but consider how well the Jehovah's Witnesses are doing despite their repeated failed predictions of the end of the world.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 56 of 67 (62886)
10-26-2003 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Quiz
10-25-2003 5:55 PM


quote:
...I didn't start with faith but with science and history. When I found that science was incorrect I moved unto history and started looking through the religons and then I found many which only one had good ground.
The fact is that the LDS church is based not on true history but on a nineteenth centure fabrication falsely claimed to be a miraculous translation of an ancient document (The Book of Mormon)
So basically you are claiming that you rejected science and history wihtout even the motivation of faith.

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