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Author Topic:   New theory about evolution between creationism and evolution.
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 166 of 433 (622881)
07-07-2011 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by zi ko
07-07-2011 4:13 AM


Re: No evidence!
Falsifiability for a theory is to be able to be tested in order to be found wrong or wright.
The fact that yours cannot tells you what, exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 4:13 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 167 of 433 (622904)
07-07-2011 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by zi ko
07-07-2011 2:53 AM


Re: Barbara Wright redux
Epigenetics give us important clues. Environment affects peri-genome. So there is the mechanism for it.
None of which involves the neural system interacting with germ cells.
Also, epigenetics does not change the DNA sequence and is therefore incapable of producing the differences seen between species. For example, the differences between humans and chimps is not due to different patterns of DNA methylation and histone packaging. The differences between humans and chimps is due to a difference in DNA sequence.
Do you think that neural system does not participate on it?
We have been waiting for you to present a mechanism by which this can happen. Turning your fantasies into questions does not stop them from being fantasies.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 2:53 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 3:08 PM Taq has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 168 of 433 (622940)
07-07-2011 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by zi ko
07-07-2011 2:53 AM


Neural Nada
Do you think that neural system does not participate on it?
Until someone can show a comprehensive mechanism by which such can occurr and that indeed this has and is taking place then, no, we do not see neural systems affecting the genome in any way whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 2:53 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 3:35 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 433 (622951)
07-07-2011 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by zi ko
07-07-2011 2:36 AM


Re: No evidence!
zi ko writes:
My theory (http://www.sleepgadgedabs.com) lacks any evidence. But it is strongly logical, comprehensive, broadly coherent , basically Lamarckian.
Your link does not seem to go anywhere. Can you provide another pointer?
Scientists generally don't call concepts or explanations without any evidence theories.
Edited by NoNukes, : ask about link.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 2:36 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 170 of 433 (622962)
07-07-2011 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Taq
07-07-2011 11:06 AM


Re: Barbara Wright redux
tag writes:
Epigenetics give us important clues. Environment affects peri-genome. So there is the mechanism for it.
None of which involves the neural system interacting with germ cells.
Also, epigenetics does not change the DNA sequence and is therefore incapable of producing the differences seen between species. For example, the differences between humans and chimps is not due to different patterns of DNA methylation and histone packaging. The differences between humans and chimps is due to a difference in DNA sequence.
Do you think that neural system does not participate on it?
We have been waiting for you to present a mechanism by which this can happen. Turning your fantasies into questions does not stop them from being fantasies.
You surely can't denay what epigenetics have proved that environment affects perigenome. MY QUESTION IS QUITE CLEAR. How is it being done if not by neural system? Can you suggest a different way?
So Epigenetics is where you should adress at, when you are asking for details about the mechanism. And as you insist that epigenetics findings are quite compatible with current theory and it is absolutely incorporated in M.S this is where to direct your questions..
Ihnow that current theory does not accept that environment cant affect DNA sequence. But are there any data that prove that emotionally emriched same information passed to genome over millions of years , can't affect this sequence, either directly by causing mutations or by affecting other mechanisms ?(engineering systems, HGM ect).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Taq, posted 07-07-2011 11:06 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Taq, posted 07-07-2011 11:56 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 171 of 433 (622970)
07-07-2011 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by NoNukes
07-07-2011 1:57 PM


Re: No evidence!
nonukes writes:
zi ko writes:
My theory (http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com) lacks any evidence. But it is strongly logical, comprehensive, broadly coherent , basically Lamarckian.
Your link does not seem to go anywhere. Can you provide another pointer?
Scientists generally don't call concepts or explanations without any evidence theories
I dont mind how you call it, and i am not a biologist to give needed evidence. All i offer is i think common sense. The right pointer is:
http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

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 Message 169 by NoNukes, posted 07-07-2011 1:57 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 172 of 433 (622972)
07-07-2011 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by zi ko
07-07-2011 3:23 PM


Re: No evidence!
http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com/
You wrote this, correct?? It needs some editing, spaces between words in many places.
Example
quote:
Thisisaschematicdivision. Infactaninterexchangebetweenthemhappensalltime.
Inhumansknowledgerepresentsthemostsignificantaspectoflife. Inhigherorganismitplaysanimportantrolealso. Butthroughempathyplaysequallyimportantroleinloweranimalstoo. Isitlogicaltoexcludethissorichandwidespreadfunctionfromtheprocessofevolutionandthusoflife? Thisdoesnotseemtobeinaccordtonature�seconomylaw. IbelievethiswastheresultofDarwinians dogmatic beliefthatknowledgehasnoanywhatsoeverseriouseffectonevolutionprocess.
You might want to make it clear you are providing a link to something you wrote, just so people wont think less of you for not being forthright. JMO

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 3:23 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 173 of 433 (622973)
07-07-2011 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by AZPaul3
07-07-2011 12:53 PM


Re: Neural Nada
AZPaul writes:
Do you think that neural system does not participate on it?
Until someone can show a comprehensive mechanism by which such can occurr and that indeed this has and is taking place then, no, we do not see neural systems affecting the genome in any way whatsoever.
You surely can't denay what epigenetics have proved that environment affects perigenome. MY QUESTION IS QUITE CLEAR. How is it being done if not by neural system? Can you suggest a different way?
So Epigenetics is where you should adress at, when you are asking for details about the mechanism. And as you insist that epigenetics findings are quite compatible with current theory and it is absolutely incorporated in M.S this is where to direct your questions..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by AZPaul3, posted 07-07-2011 12:53 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Wounded King, posted 07-07-2011 3:52 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 175 by AZPaul3, posted 07-07-2011 5:37 PM zi ko has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 174 of 433 (622982)
07-07-2011 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by zi ko
07-07-2011 3:35 PM


Re: Neural Nada
How is it being done if not by neural system? Can you suggest a different way?
Wow, seriously? I wish you had asked this question a hundred or so messages ago so we had some idea just how ignorant you are of the subject you are making pivotal to your argunment.
There are lots of well characterised mechanisms which affect epigenetic states. Feeding methyl supplements to pregnant mice increases DNA methylation levels in their offspring and can have significant phenotypic effects(Cooney et al., 2002). This isn't mediated by some spooky neural phenomenon, it is simple biochemistry.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 3:35 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by zi ko, posted 07-08-2011 1:23 AM Wounded King has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 175 of 433 (623005)
07-07-2011 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by zi ko
07-07-2011 3:35 PM


Re: Neural Nada
So Epigenetics is where you should adress at, when you are asking for details about the mechanism.
zi ko, you are the one pushing neural systems as a vector for genetic change, not me.
It is you who carries the burden of proof, not me.
If you cannot produce the evidence then you have nothing. And so far you have nothing. Until you produce direct positive evidence (not negative evidence on other mechanisms) your idea is mere speculation, nothing more.
MY QUESTION IS QUITE CLEAR. How is it being done if not by neural system?
Not my problem.
If you want to insist that neural systems are involved then I have two words for you:
Prove it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 3:35 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by zi ko, posted 07-08-2011 5:29 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 176 of 433 (623054)
07-07-2011 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by zi ko
07-07-2011 3:08 PM


Re: Barbara Wright redux
You surely can't denay what epigenetics have proved that environment affects perigenome.
Do you understand what epigenetics does? Can epigenetics explain the differences between humans and chimps? If not, then your "theory" is useless for explaining the differences between species, and is in no way a valid replacement for the current theory of evolution which does explain the differences.
How is it being done if not by neural system?
How is it being done by the neural system? The burden of proof is on you.
So Epigenetics is where you should adress at, when you are asking for details about the mechanism.
Your mechanism is incapable of producing the differences seen between species.
But are there any data that prove that emotionally emriched same information passed to genome over millions of years , can't affect this sequence, either directly by causing mutations or by affecting other mechanisms ?(engineering systems, HGM ect).
Shouldn't you find this out before claiming that this data does exist? Usually, a theory starts with observations. So where are the observations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 3:08 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by zi ko, posted 07-08-2011 1:49 AM Taq has replied
 Message 181 by zi ko, posted 07-08-2011 1:58 AM Taq has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 177 of 433 (623067)
07-08-2011 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Wounded King
07-07-2011 3:52 PM


Re: Neural Nada
Wounded King writes:
How is it being done if not by neural system? Can you suggest a different way?
Wow, seriously? I wish you had asked this question a hundred or so messages ago so we had some idea just how ignorant you are of the subject you are making pivotal to your argunment.
There are lots of well characterised mechanisms which affect epigenetic states. Feeding methyl supplements to pregnant mice increases DNA methylation levels in their offspring and can have significant phenotypic effects(Cooney et al., 2002). This isn't mediated by some spooky neural phenomenon, it is simple biochemistry.
TTFN,
I quote from the link you suggested:
"In these studies, considerable credible efforts were made to assure that animals received the same food and were maintained at the same temperature, humidity, light and dark cycle, etc. "
"Health and life span within cohorts of mammals can depend on many factors, including diet, lifestyle, genetics and epigenetics."
"Epigenetic and environmental interactions can be studied with minimal confounding genetic and environmental variation by using well-characterized inbred mice."
Don't you think the precoutions taken mean something? Could life style f.e be "known" to genome under inspection otherwise than by neural tissue intervention?
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Wounded King, posted 07-07-2011 3:52 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Taq, posted 07-08-2011 1:45 AM zi ko has not replied
 Message 189 by Wounded King, posted 07-10-2011 5:11 AM zi ko has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 178 of 433 (623073)
07-08-2011 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by zi ko
07-08-2011 1:23 AM


Re: Neural Nada
Could life style f.e be "known" to genome under inspection otherwise than by neural tissue intervention?
You are shifting the burden of proof. You are the one claiming that neural tissue guides mutation in germ line cells. Either evidence this claim or withdraw it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by zi ko, posted 07-08-2011 1:23 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 179 of 433 (623074)
07-08-2011 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Taq
07-07-2011 11:56 PM


Re: Barbara Wright redux
Taq writes:
You surely can't denay what epigenetics have proved that environment affects perigenome.
Do you understand what epigenetics does? Can epigenetics explain the differences between humans and chimps? If not, then your "theory" is useless for explaining the differences between species, and is in no way a valid replacement for the current theory of evolution which does explain the differences
My "theory"expains these differences between species by evolution through INFORMATION, mutations and natural selection/

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Taq, posted 07-07-2011 11:56 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Taq, posted 07-08-2011 1:51 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 180 of 433 (623076)
07-08-2011 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by zi ko
07-08-2011 1:49 AM


Re: Barbara Wright redux
My "theory"expains these differences between species by evolution through INFORMATION, mutations and natural selection/
Through what information? Be specific, include data, and include mechanisms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by zi ko, posted 07-08-2011 1:49 AM zi ko has not replied

  
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