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Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 20 of 192 (621253)
06-24-2011 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by zi ko
06-24-2011 9:43 AM


Think what the effect would be if the same type of information comes again and again over manny, maybe million, of generations by empathy.
How is "information" conveyed by "empathy?" How does this work inter-generationally?
All your other vectors of "information" transfer can be simply restated as chemical response to stimuli. Nothing new there.
But this "empathy" bit is not at all clear to me.
Explain this please.

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 Message 13 by zi ko, posted 06-24-2011 9:43 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 9:40 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 28 of 192 (621415)
06-25-2011 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by zi ko
06-25-2011 9:40 AM


Empathy Transfer
Let me use the example of a cat.
This knowledge starts as simple information coming from environment ...
What types of information are you talking about? Temperature, moisture, odor, sight, sound? What sense organs are involved in perceiving this information?
You start with information in the environment and then go to the statement below. You leave out the most basic process of how this information gets into the body of the cat. If not already in a biochemical form from the cat's sense organs then by what mechanism does the "information" manifest within the cat tissue and specifically which cat tissues?
is modified properly inside neural system,( eg. is being colored by emotion, if t has survival value for organism) ...
Modified how? If biochemical then how are you suggesting this information is changed? Are transfer proteins formed (how?, where?) and then are re-folded or have more amino acids added or deleted (by what? how? when? where?)?
How would the cell know if this "information" has survival value?
I'm assuming the information is in the form of some chemical "stuff" (proteins?). What attributes of this "stuff" would convey "beneficial" vs "harmful"? How would the cats neuron or mirror cell identify the difference?
and it ends up to genome, in a repeated fashion, where it has permanent effect.
What genome? The genome in the sensing neuron? The "mirror" cell? Some other cell (where?)
Can you take one piece of "information" whether that be some sight, sound, tactile etc., and walk us through the process of how the information gets into the cat (by what manifestation does it appear in the cat tissue), how it would be modified and what would this end product look like and what would it do to alter the nucleic acids in the genome? How would it know which chromosome, which gene and which base-pairs to alter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 9:40 AM zi ko has replied

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 Message 30 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 9:22 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 32 of 192 (621482)
06-26-2011 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by zi ko
06-26-2011 9:22 AM


Re: Empathy Transfer
What i am proposing to is just a theory, a hypothesis if you like, and all above yoy ask are to complicated to be answered even by special scientist.
Sorry, zi ko, this is just evasion. If you have a "theory" or even a "hypothesis" then you must be able to answer these questions. To not do so indicates you are presenting nothing more than your personal subjective speculations. I am hoping for more. If you have none then you seem to have nothing.
Edited by AZPaul3, : edit ... duh.

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 Message 30 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 9:22 AM zi ko has replied

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 Message 34 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 2:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 37 of 192 (621525)
06-26-2011 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by zi ko
06-26-2011 2:44 PM


Re: Empathy Transfer
I have to agree with Larni an this one. You do not know what science or the scientific method are.
You have an idea. That is all. You have no observations upon which to base this idea. You have no proposed mechanism to tested now or in the future.
To say that
"information unspecified as to type, character or form gets into the body by some unknown means and is changed by some unknown mechanism into something else as yet unspecified based upon an emotion then some unknown mechanism somehow recognises this information as 'benficial' and somehow gets it to the genome and in some undescribed way can alter the base pairs of a somehow specifically targetted gene"
is not any type of theory or hypothesis germain to the quote you give and warrents no further consideration by any researchers.
If you want to present this idea with any efficacy at all you need to fill in the holes with a clear chain of observations from specific defined "information" through to observed results giving at each step some proposed mechanisms.
Until then, zi ko, you have nothing to offer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by zi ko, posted 06-26-2011 2:44 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by zi ko, posted 06-27-2011 12:06 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 48 of 192 (621661)
06-27-2011 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
06-27-2011 4:50 PM


An Obvious Mechanism
How does that observation change the genomic sequence in sperm and ova?
You were not paying attention Taq.
In Message 37 I gave a definitive paraphrase of zi ko's mechanism:
quote:
Information unspecified as to type, character or form gets into the body by some unknown means and is changed by some unknown mechanism into something else as yet unspecified based upon an emotion then some unknown mechanism somehow recognises this information as 'benficial' and somehow gets it to the genome and in some undescribed way can alter the base pairs of a somehow specifically targetted gene.
I hope this clears up your confusion.

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 Message 47 by Taq, posted 06-27-2011 4:50 PM Taq has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 117 of 192 (623626)
07-12-2011 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by zi ko
07-12-2011 2:33 AM


Mutations are Random
What is the evidence that mutations are strictly random and not information or function driven?
These can help get you started on answering this question.
Lederberg
Blog entry by Prof MacNeill, Cornell Univ
In evolution theory why is random mutation random while natural selection is not random?

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