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Author Topic:   New theory about evolution between creationism and evolution.
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 196 of 433 (623502)
07-11-2011 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Larni
07-10-2011 6:29 PM


Re: DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
You've already stated that you are only speculating in the other thread.
Time to end things, I think.
Evidence is not a condition of a theory. A theory must be
coherent and can be just challenged in terms of logic and arguments. Evidence for or against is highly desired but not a reason not to be discussed in a forum.
So my question (which i think is crucial) remains:
Do epigenetics accept the idea of information flow from environment to genome though neural system?
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Larni, posted 07-10-2011 6:29 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 2:11 AM zi ko has not replied
 Message 198 by Larni, posted 07-11-2011 3:51 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 199 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2011 12:06 PM zi ko has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 197 of 433 (623503)
07-11-2011 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by zi ko
07-11-2011 1:41 AM


Re: DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
Evidence is not a condition of a theory.
Umm, yes it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by zi ko, posted 07-11-2011 1:41 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 198 of 433 (623507)
07-11-2011 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by zi ko
07-11-2011 1:41 AM


Re: DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
Do epigenetics accept the idea of information flow from environment to genome though neural system?
That is great example of a 'research question': it is not a theory.
What is the definition of theory, you are using?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by zi ko, posted 07-11-2011 1:41 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 2:18 AM Larni has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 199 of 433 (623546)
07-11-2011 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by zi ko
07-11-2011 1:41 AM


Evidence Required
Evidence is not a condition of a theory.
Oh, zi ko, this is so very very wrong!
Evidence is not necessary, but desirable, for a speculation.
But for an hypothesis, and even more so for a real full blown theory, evidence is not just a condition it is a hard fast requirement.
Do not confuse the scientific definition of "theory" with the pop-culture misuse of the term. This is a science issue.
I think you need to get your definitions in order before you continue here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by zi ko, posted 07-11-2011 1:41 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 1:15 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 200 of 433 (623615)
07-12-2011 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by AZPaul3
07-11-2011 12:06 PM


Re: Do epigenetics accept or not information flow from environment to genome?
AZPaul,
I have shown that scientists on epigenetics uniquivocally accept information flow from environment to genome (Baldwin effect, epigenetics in wikipedia, Cooney et all. 2002) . Cooney hasn'd said it straightly but he implied it quite clearly. You haven't comment on it yet.
I think this matter has to be settled for before any further discussion.
Information: knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Touch up subtitle to get rid of smilie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2011 12:06 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by AZPaul3, posted 07-12-2011 10:49 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 201 of 433 (623616)
07-12-2011 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Wounded King
07-10-2011 3:07 PM


Re: Epigenetic information flow from environment to genome
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They prove also that the authors believe that life style (obviously by neural system- how else it coulld be done?) can affect epigenome areas. It is simple as that.
Sorry Zi Ko, I've already pointed out to you why this is wrong, either you really can't understand plain english or you are just lying at this point.
The papers they referred to were not looking at the epigenome, they were looking at health and longevity. The quotes you gave were from the introduction talking about the work of others, not the epigeentic factors studied in that paper.
TTFN,
Cooney et all clearly are implying environment genome communication. MY english are not so good as yours, but on this matter i have to insist.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Wounded King, posted 07-10-2011 3:07 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Wounded King, posted 07-12-2011 4:28 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 202 of 433 (623617)
07-12-2011 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Taq
07-11-2011 1:36 AM


Re: Epigenetic information flow from environment to genome?
Not only. Tthey prove also that the authors believe that life style (obviously by neural system- how else it coulld be done?) can affect epigenome areas. It is simple as that.
Once again, epigenetics does not explain the difference between species. The theory you are trying to replace DOES Not only. Tthey prove also that the authors believe that life style (obviously by neural system- how else it coulld be done?) can affect epigenome areas. It is simple as that.
Once again, epigenetics does not explain the difference between species. The theory you are trying to replace DOES explain the differences between species. You seem to have a problem here.
You seem to have a problem here.
My theory (http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com), or as you like to call it, does explain the differences between species, as it encorporates all mechanisms your theory is using, plus the information concept. Your concept of strictly random mutations restricts Current theory's ability to explain new scientific findings, and so its validity.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 1:36 AM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 203 of 433 (623618)
07-12-2011 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Taq
07-11-2011 1:39 AM


Re: Epigenetic information flow from environment to genome
Using my analogy above, we are not doubting the existence of cars or rainbows just as we do not doubt mutations or empathy. What we doubt is the claim that cars CAUSE rainbows just as we doubt that empathy guides mutations.
Your analogy is unfortunate. Information impact on genome has been almost proved. Empathy is a type of information. so?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 1:39 AM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 204 of 433 (623619)
07-12-2011 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Larni
07-11-2011 3:51 AM


Theory definition: see wikipedia
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Larni, posted 07-11-2011 3:51 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Larni, posted 07-12-2011 3:14 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 206 by AZPaul3, posted 07-12-2011 3:47 AM zi ko has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 205 of 433 (623627)
07-12-2011 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by zi ko
07-12-2011 2:18 AM


A theory needs evidence. It must have evidence: do you not agree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 2:18 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 11:35 AM Larni has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 206 of 433 (623632)
07-12-2011 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by zi ko
07-12-2011 2:18 AM


"Theory" in Science
National Academies of Science
quote:
The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence.
Evidence is paramount to having a "theory". And a "theory" must be a "comprehensive" explanation of a phenomenon based upon observable, demonstrable and repeatable evidence for all aspects of the theory.
You are missing cogent definitions of "information" and "empathy" and you are missing a defined comprehensive testable mechanism for this effect on a genome.
You do not have a theory, zi ko.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 2:18 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 11:49 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 219 by zi ko, posted 07-13-2011 9:33 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 207 of 433 (623635)
07-12-2011 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by zi ko
07-12-2011 1:36 AM


Re: Epigenetic information flow from environment to genome
Cooney et all clearly are implying environment genome communication. MY english are not so good as yours, but on this matter i have to insist.
Well duh! But that isn't what you said that I was objecting to. I've said over and over again that the environment interacts with the genome. What I was objecting to was your assumption that this is via the neural system when I have already shown you papers which detailed the routine biochemical pathways which can mediate the environmental interaction through diet and which do not require the nervous systems involvement.
And 'Life style' covers so many variables that to say that 'life style' affects the genome/epigenome is to essentially say nothing. Smoking could be part of a life style, regular and prolonged sunbathing, drinking ethyl methanesulfonate or ethidium bromide could be part of a 'life style'. all of these things would affect the genome, some would even affect the germ cells producing heritable mutations. What this certainly doesn't show is that these environmental factors in any way direct the changes to the genome/epigenome that they produce.
Once again you are too vague about what you want to discuss.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 1:36 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 1:03 PM Wounded King has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 208 of 433 (623656)
07-12-2011 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by zi ko
07-12-2011 1:15 AM


Re: Do epigenetics accept or not information flow from environment to genome?
You haven't comment on it yet.
Wounded King is our resident expert on these things.
His answers to you are more than adequate for my purposes. I refer you to his Message 207 above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 1:15 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 209 of 433 (623660)
07-12-2011 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Larni
07-12-2011 3:14 AM


Re: Epigenetic information flow from environment to genome
A theory needs evidence. It must have evidence: do you not agree?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely. But remember there are many theories in science today that started as speculations.
My theory (?) (http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com) being so comprehensive, it doesn't need to bring evidence from the scratch. I have the right i think to use any relative evidence that is available, at least in matters that it coinsides with existing scientific findings.
So as it refers information flow from environment to genome, i use the evidences brought by J. Shapiro, Cooney and B. Wright. I think they are more than enough.
Obviously i need evidence relating my idea of empathy and neural system intervention on the evolution process. Presently i can only speculate.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Larni, posted 07-12-2011 3:14 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Larni, posted 07-12-2011 1:04 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 210 of 433 (623661)
07-12-2011 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by AZPaul3
07-12-2011 3:47 AM


Re: Epigenetic information flow from environment to genome
You do not have a theory, zi ko.
I don't mind if i have a "theory" AZPauL3. This moment what i care is to make clear to others what i am saying.----------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by AZPaul3, posted 07-12-2011 3:47 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by AZPaul3, posted 07-12-2011 12:56 PM zi ko has replied

  
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