Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9077 total)
88 online now:
DrJones*, dwise1, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), nwr, Tanypteryx (5 members, 83 visitors)
Newest Member: Contrarian
Post Volume: Total: 894,038 Year: 5,150/6,534 Month: 570/794 Week: 61/135 Day: 1/6 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery
Straggler
Member (Idle past 241 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 1216 of 1725 (623687)
07-12-2011 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1215 by Jon
07-12-2011 2:41 PM


Re: Man of "Size"......?
So I am damned if I do and damned if I don't huh?

Jon writes:

Hopefully Chuck will learn something from all of this.

We can only hope.

Jon writes:

No thanks.

I don't think you are in a position to turn down learning opportunities Jon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1215 by Jon, posted 07-12-2011 2:41 PM Jon has taken no action

DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 1217 of 1725 (623714)
07-12-2011 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1215 by Jon
07-12-2011 2:41 PM


Re: Man of "Size"......?
Yes; the little guy is always eager to prove himself. It's up to the bigger man to turn him down.

I wonder why you have such a low opinion of Straggler? It seems your implication is that Straggler is a bully and should not "pick upon" Chuck, as if a Great Debate between Straggler and Chuck could be nothing but one person "beating up" the other, instead of a learning experience.

Edited by DBlevins, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1215 by Jon, posted 07-12-2011 2:41 PM Jon has taken no action

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1749 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1218 of 1725 (623735)
07-13-2011 3:13 AM


Getting things right.
Chuck77 writes:

Everything is subjective until you can PROVE it. Im taking the same position as bluegenes as "knowing" God exists as he "knows" "the only source of supernatural beings is the imagination". It's pretty arrogant of me to think I "know" God exists, huh?

Chuck, bluegenes does not claim to "know" that "the only source of supernatural beings is the imagination". I claim that the only known source of SBs is the human imagination, meaning the only source that everyone on this board can know of, and the only one that can currently be established scientifically beyond all reasonable doubt.

Other suggestions, like SBs communicating to some people, have never been confirmed. But there's no way we can conclusively know that this has never happened.

If you're going to paraphrase me, please get it right. Try to understand why "All supernatural beings are figments of the imagination" is stated as a theory rather than as a fact.


PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1219 of 1725 (624039)
07-15-2011 2:37 PM


Great Debate
I will say that the Great Debate format did save Chuck from being dogpiled, even though he did a far better job of making Straggler's case than supporting his own.

(And if Chuck wants to debate the Bible in a Great Debate format then I am up for it - so long as we can agree an acceptable topic)


xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2226
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1220 of 1725 (624111)
07-16-2011 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1204 by Straggler
07-12-2011 3:12 AM


Xongsmith's analemma to bluegenes theory
Straggler asks:
Now why are you objecting to similar falsification of "ALL supernatural concepts are sourced from human imagination".......?

The Falsification issue is only the 2nd problem *, and of a more minor nature. But I might take a quick draw and drunkenly shoot my pistol shot thusly:

Because all of the equipment used to investigate these sorts of things has yet to be scientifically approved throughout the scientific community and neither has it been demonstrated to allow for laboratory-to-laboratory re-calibration. Reading allegorical stories of old from numerous sources is not scientific evidence. Synthesizing these sources and deducing some kind of Houdini Hypothesis is only wishful thinking. Searching backwards through purportedly accurate historical documents also has the defect of inaccuracy, built in from the biases of the writers of those historical documents and the huge problem with translating dead language nuances into the appropriately equivalent modern language nuances. This is different from counting varve layers or radiometric dating of fossils, because that evidence is not written by the known-to-be-fallacious hand of mankind. To falsify a scientific theory you have to use a scientific process, using scientific unbiased calibrated equipment, conclusively demonstrating the falsehood.

SO...this gets me to the following train of thought....

Here is my analemma** to bluegenes theory:

xongsmith writes:

Any objective scientific evidence of any phenomena will be always explained as a natural process and never be explained as a supernatural process. The only known scientific explanation of any phenomenon is a natural explanation.

All scientifically known phenomena we have observed in the entire history of scientific investigation & study have been explained & described as natural.

Just as rabbit DNA is only known to come from rabbit DNA, scientific explanations of every phenomenon known are only known to come from descriptions of natural processes.

This analemma can be falsified by providing a single instance of objective scientific evidence accepted in the scientific community that describes a phenomenon or process as supernatural.

Arguments that a supernatural scientific description can exist are not applicable here. And I should note that I was derelict in not mentioning this earlier in Straggler's Second Coming scenario - instead of getting caught up in alternate explanations - this is the equivalent of bluegenes argument that saying supernatural beings can exist are not arguments against his theory.

By inductive reasoning, this analemma predicts that any future verified scientific explanation accepted by the scientific community will always be a natural explanation. There will never be a supernatural explanation.

For evidence I will offer up the entirety of all peer-reviewed reputable scientific publications published to date, but these are not at all what I would describe as "plenty of evidence", so my analemma is not being put forth as a strong analemma. Note that even if it turns out that an article in one of these publications turns out to be in error, the article in question will never the less still describe a natural explanation of the phenomena observed.

** analemma is a word i made up to capture the essence of a lemma with the nuance of an analogue with undertones of antagonism meant in a friendly way. True, it is also the figure-8 shape of something like the sun photographed around a whole year from the same spot in a backyard by many amateur astronomers. This is a good coincidence, because it resonates with the circularity of this whole subject of supernaturalness. We go around in repetition all the time with these things. Think of a mobius Yin/Yang snake-eating-its-tail Klein Bottle thingy.
===============================================
* But to get back to 1st problem....

AZPaul3 says:

Choose any supernatural concept you want and go through as much of the literature, oral history, all the evidence available from as far back in antiquity as is possible.

That is your repeatable experiment.

Well...aside from the uselessness of literature and oral history as argued above, this is at least an attempt to describe the kind of scientific investigation process to perform the science to validate bluegenes theory. I'm not certain where AZPaul3 will wind up when he applies this method to investigating whether Jesus was a figment of human imagination or not - so you see repeatability isn't all that easy. Wow, what if the Einsteinian General Theory of Gravity upgrade to Newton's Gravity Theory turned out NOT TO BE TRUE on the other side of the moon - but i digress...

all of the equipment used to investigate these sorts of things has yet to be scientifically approved throughout the scientific community and neither has it been demonstrated to allow for laboratory-to-laboratory re-calibration.

What are the tools? How are the hands going get dirty?

I have already hinted that it had to be in the field of forensic science.....
=============================================
WHOOOPS I forgot:

How to go about testing this analemma.....

Go to any accredited decent university and go to the library. find the scientific journals. Pull a random one off the shelf. Open randomly to some page. Find the beginning of the article. Read to end of article. Determine whether the conclusions were in favor of a supernatural explanation.

This is fundamentally different from the arguments against using old stories to support the existence of a supernatural being, because this is an analemma of what you will find in these sorts of documents, a small but easily understood step up from finding things like the letter 'e' or the trigylph 'the' - in this case, unlike the other, the text is valid evidence.

Edited by xongsmith, : Forgot to include the procedural experimental process.

Edited by xongsmith, : emphasis

Edited by xongsmith, : more tailoring, with a broad cloth under my arm

Edited by xongsmith, : No reason given.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1204 by Straggler, posted 07-12-2011 3:12 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1221 by bluegenes, posted 07-16-2011 4:35 AM xongsmith has replied
 Message 1225 by Straggler, posted 07-16-2011 5:50 AM xongsmith has replied
 Message 1233 by RAZD, posted 07-16-2011 1:02 PM xongsmith has seen this message

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1749 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1221 of 1725 (624116)
07-16-2011 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1220 by xongsmith
07-16-2011 2:34 AM


Yet more support.
xongsmith writes:

Here is my analemma** to bluegenes theory:
Any objective scientific evidence of any phenomena will be always explained as a natural process and never be explained as a supernatural process.

That's a theory, not a fact that one can conclusively know. It matches my theory and I would describe it as a strong theory.

xong writes:

The only known scientific explanation of any phenomenon is a natural explanation.

That is a fact which supports both your theory and mine. Just like the fact that the only known source of supernatural beings is the human imagination.

xong writes:

All scientifically known phenomena we have observed in the entire history of scientific investigation & study have been explained & described as natural.

Just as rabbit DNA is only known to come from rabbit DNA, scientific explanations of every phenomenon known are only known to come from descriptions of natural processes.

These statements support both of our theories.

xong writes:

This analemma can be falsified by providing a single instance of objective scientific evidence accepted in the scientific community that describes a phenomenon or process as supernatural.

Exactly. It's theoretically falsifiable, just like my theory.

xong writes:

By inductive reasoning, this analemma predicts that any future verified scientific explanation accepted by the scientific community will always be a natural explanation. There will never be a supernatural explanation.

Very strong, high confidence theory. Just like mine.

Re: My theory:

xong writes:

What are the tools? How are the hands going get dirty?
I have already hinted that it had to be in the field of forensic science.....

I'll help you. The central field is psychology. My theory could possibly be described as a law in psychology. There are already a number of hypotheses in the field attempting to explain the phenomenon (our tendency to invent SBs and believe in them). Plenty of people are getting their hands dirty. These hypotheses could potentially explain my theory when it's stated as a law.

More accurately, the modern "field" described as "cognitive science" is the area. Neurology and anthropology are involved along with psychology.

My theory (or law) is often taken as written and treated as if it were a fact.

This demonstrates what a very strong, high confidence theory it is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1220 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 2:34 AM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1222 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 5:03 AM bluegenes has replied
 Message 1224 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 5:44 AM bluegenes has taken no action

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2226
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 1222 of 1725 (624118)
07-16-2011 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1221 by bluegenes
07-16-2011 4:35 AM


Re: Yet more support.
Might have missed where you dealt with:

By inductive reasoning, this analemma predicts that any future verified scientific explanation accepted by the scientific community will always be a natural explanation. There will never be a supernatural explanation.

This means your theory cannot be falsified.

Sorry, dude, I am on your side - but....


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by bluegenes, posted 07-16-2011 4:35 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1223 by bluegenes, posted 07-16-2011 5:16 AM xongsmith has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1749 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1223 of 1725 (624120)
07-16-2011 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1222 by xongsmith
07-16-2011 5:03 AM


Re: Yet more support.
xongsmith writes:

Might have missed where you dealt with:

"By inductive reasoning, this analemma predicts that any future verified scientific explanation accepted by the scientific community will always be a natural explanation. There will never be a supernatural explanation."

Apparently, you did. That is theory, not fact, therefore this (my bold):

xong writes:

This means your theory cannot be falsified.

Does not follow.

xong writes:

Sorry, dude, I am on your side - but....

It would help if you understood what you were talking about.

Your theory predicts that my theory will not be falsified (and so does mine), but we cannot conclusively know that the two theories will not be falsified, therefore they have to be regarded as falsifiable. That's all "falsifiable" means.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1222 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 5:03 AM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1226 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 6:00 AM bluegenes has replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2226
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 1224 of 1725 (624122)
07-16-2011 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1221 by bluegenes
07-16-2011 4:35 AM


Re: Yet more psychoanalysis
bluegenes nicely ends his reply with:

I'll help you. The central field is psychology. My theory could possibly be described as a law in psychology. There are already a number of hypotheses in the field attempting to explain the phenomenon (our tendency to invent SBs and believe in them). Plenty of people are getting their hands dirty. These hypotheses could potentially explain my theory when it's stated as a law.

More accurately, the modern "field" described as "cognitive science" is the area. Neurology and anthropology are involved along with psychology.

My theory (or law) is often taken as written and treated as if it were a fact.

This demonstrates what a very strong, high confidence theory it is.

ahhh......

psychology.

here's my own mother with a bonifide PhD and her successful private practice and also me seeing one of these dudes later on....

sigh.....

it's been called one of the soft sciences........

the neuro folks are ominously closing in on what is exactly ticking inside of our brains with more and more advancing equipment....

not sure i wanna go along...willingly....

but never mind.

....suffice it to say that you cannot help. This isn't a situation where Deus Ex Machina, Mirabile Dictu, Shazzam! solves the situation from across the ENOURGAMOUS OCEAN.

My theory (or law) is often taken as written and treated as if it were a fact.

Bull-fucking-shite. Cite. EvC lapdogs don't count.

(he said in a humorous way, not trying to raise any straggling arms)

And the birds are increasing their marvelous symphony this morning. I have to be somewhere...just don't know where.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by bluegenes, posted 07-16-2011 4:35 AM bluegenes has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 1231 by Larni, posted 07-16-2011 8:12 AM xongsmith has seen this message

Straggler
Member (Idle past 241 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 1225 of 1725 (624125)
07-16-2011 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1220 by xongsmith
07-16-2011 2:34 AM


Re: Xongsmith's analemma to bluegenes theory
You seem to be saying that whenever we properly investigate an observable phenomenon (e.g. lightning) we will find it to have a naturalistic cause rather than a supernatural one (e.g. static electricity rather than Thor brandishing his magic hammer).

I really don't see how this is anything other than a long winded restatement of bluegenes theory but with your own ongoing misapprehensions about the nature of falsifiability layered on top.

X writes:

There will never be a supernatural explanation.

Well if Thor had been confirmed as the cause of lightning rather than static electricity there would have been a confirmed supernatural explanation for lightning wouldn't there?

The fact that this has never occurred for any observable phenomenon is why it is a strong theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1220 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 2:34 AM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1227 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 6:15 AM Straggler has replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2226
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 1226 of 1725 (624127)
07-16-2011 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1223 by bluegenes
07-16-2011 5:16 AM


Re: Yet more support.
You understand the concept of NEVER????

xong writes:


This means your theory cannot be falsified.

Does not follow.

ERROR.

Here is your own opening statement in Message 167:

It is falsified by the demonstration of the existence of just one supernatural being beyond all reasonable doubt.

This will NEVER happen according to my analemma, which you, yourself, have concluded is a "strong" theory (unlike me in my modest persona).

See it yet?


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1223 by bluegenes, posted 07-16-2011 5:16 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1228 by bluegenes, posted 07-16-2011 6:25 AM xongsmith has taken no action
 Message 1230 by Panda, posted 07-16-2011 7:37 AM xongsmith has replied
 Message 1234 by RAZD, posted 07-16-2011 2:24 PM xongsmith has seen this message
 Message 1250 by RAZD, posted 07-16-2011 10:54 PM xongsmith has seen this message

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2226
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1227 of 1725 (624128)
07-16-2011 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1225 by Straggler
07-16-2011 5:50 AM


Re: Xongsmith's analemma to bluegenes theory
No - the stronger the results of bluegenes theory as they keep coming in, the stronger his theory cannot be falsified. Hence a mobius spiral into the Klien Bottle of our minds. It's dog eat dog, cat eat cat, rat eat rat. The very evidence that supports his theory is the very evidence that makes it unfalsifiable. See?

I really don't see how this is anything other than a long winded restatement of bluegenes theory but with your own ongoing misapprehensions about the nature of falsifiability layered on top.

Not a restatement - an analog with a different twist. Maybe like a wolf in sheep's clothing?


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1225 by Straggler, posted 07-16-2011 5:50 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1229 by bluegenes, posted 07-16-2011 6:33 AM xongsmith has taken no action
 Message 1232 by Straggler, posted 07-16-2011 9:38 AM xongsmith has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1749 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1228 of 1725 (624129)
07-16-2011 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1226 by xongsmith
07-16-2011 6:00 AM


Re: Yet more support.
xongsmith writes:

This will NEVER happen according to my analemma, which you, yourself, have concluded is a "strong" theory (unlike me in my modest persona).

Right. You theorize that it will never happen, and so do I. But we cannot state it as a fact that it will never happen. So, our theories are considered falsifiable.

xong writes:

See it yet?

Do you see it yet?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1226 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 6:00 AM xongsmith has taken no action

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1749 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1229 of 1725 (624130)
07-16-2011 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1227 by xongsmith
07-16-2011 6:15 AM


Super-strong theory of mine.
xong writes:

No - the stronger the results of bluegenes theory as they keep coming in, the stronger his theory cannot be falsified.

Correction: The stronger the support for bluegenes' theory, the less likely it seems that it will be falsified. Or: the stronger bluegenes' theory is, the stronger xongsmith's theory is.

Neither become facts.

It works like that for all scientific theories. You are (inadvertently?) implying that I have a very strong, high confidence theory, yet still trying desperately to argue against that claim.

Why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1227 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 6:15 AM xongsmith has taken no action

Panda
Member (Idle past 2985 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 1230 of 1725 (624146)
07-16-2011 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1226 by xongsmith
07-16-2011 6:00 AM


Re: Yet more support.
xongsmith writes:

This will NEVER happen according to my analemma


This appears to be a sign of some really intense cognitive dissonance or a complete failure to communicate.
Since I have read many of your posts in this forum, I am left thinking it is the former.

How can you propose a "This will never happen" theory and then say "It will never be falsified" unless you base that conclusion on the premise?
When you claim that "This will never happen" all you can do is expect (to a high degree of certainty) that it will never be falsified - but you cannot make a claim that it 100% won't be falsified.
This level of certainty is based on historical evidence and gauges how 'strong' a theory is - but it is never 100%.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1226 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 6:00 AM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1249 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 10:00 PM Panda has seen this message

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022