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Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: United States Debt Default | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Of course, and they were pretty ineffective.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Taq Member Posts: 10077 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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The answer to all of those is no, in my opinion. We all know that none of those programs are where the problem lies, though. None of those programs are where there is the most waste. Those programs help people, not pad pockets.
I agree. However, there are going to be some tough choices if the debt ceiling is not raised. Someone is going to decide who gets laid off, who doesn't get their social security, etc. The Republicans did the same thing during the Clinton presidency, and it cost them seats. All the Democrats had to do is say, "Anyone want to know why they aren't getting their Social Security checks? Well, the Republicans are to blame." And they were right. There seems to be a real disconnect within the base of the Republican party. Not long ago, you could have attended a Republican rally where someone would have a sign that said "No Socialized Medicine, and Keep Your Hands Off Of My Medicare". I remember watching a political talk show where a Republican representative refused to consider that Medicare was socialized medicine. On top of all of this, non-security discretionary spending is not the problem:
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seanfhear Junior Member (Idle past 4620 days) Posts: 23 From: California Joined:
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These are people who literally can't tell if their income ($50,000 a year) is MORE or LESS than someone making $25 million a year. I know American education is bad but is it really that bad A first grade student a child of 6-7 could anwser that correctly. Some conservatives lack education, some lack intelligence but it seems in this country you can’t fix defective ideology with a good education or a law degree. Mostly Americans have lost the ability to gather information and think for themselves so they follow a perverted right wing morality over the cliff and with their dying breath they saydamned liberals.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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Someone is going to decide who gets laid off, who doesn't get their social security, etc. There's a bit of a rub, there - the Executive branch doesn't have the constitutional authority to not pay someone whom Congress has authorized an expenditure for. When Congress passes a law that you should be paid, it's a violation of the separation of powers for the Executive branch to not pay you. It's a bit of a constitutional oversight, but it stems fundamentally from the fact that Congress has passed mutually contradicting laws - they've authorized only X amount of debt, but have legislated K > X amount of spending. There's no constitutional guidance on what's supposed to happen when Congress does that because it never occurred to the Founding Fathers that Congress would ever be that stupid. Regardless, SS recipients have a legal right to be paid, military contractors have a legal right to be paid, everybody who the government is supposed to pay has a legal right to be paid, because a law was passed to pay them. And the Executive branch simply isn't granted the constitutional authority to contradict Congress and say "sorry, not going to pay you" - not for any reason. There's already court precedent on this; when Congress passes a law that someone should be paid for something, they have to be paid.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Regardless, SS recipients have a legal right to be paid, military contractors have a legal right to be paid, everybody who the government is supposed to pay has a legal right to be paid, because a law was passed to pay them. And the Executive branch simply isn't granted the constitutional authority to contradict Congress and say "sorry, not going to pay you" - not for any reason. There's already court precedent on this; when Congress passes a law that someone should be paid for something, they have to be paid. But what happens when the money just isn't there? What happens when the Social Security checks and military wage checks are returned NSF? What law creates something from nothing? Jon Love your enemies!
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Malvern Junior Member (Idle past 4348 days) Posts: 20 From: Mesopotamia, Ohio USA Joined: |
Speaking of constitutional oversite, can Congress REALLY kick the responsibility and authority of raising the debt ceiling over to the President without actually voting on it themselves? Isn't the Legislative branch mandated by the constitution to vote on money matters, and not the Executive?
(:raig
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Certainly they can. It may well be unconstitutional but until that is determined by the SCOTUS they can do most anything.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
But what happens when the money just isn't there? What happens when the Social Security checks and military wage checks are returned NSF? The government prints money, Jon. By definition they can't run out of it because they're the source of it. The Secretary of the Treasury is given statutory authority to strike coinage. So, he'll just strike some. Under Federal Law he can strike all the platinum coinage he sees fit.
What law creates something from nothing? Well, in this case, it's US Code Sect 31.5112 (k).
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Speaking of constitutional oversite, can Congress REALLY kick the responsibility and authority of raising the debt ceiling over to the President without actually voting on it themselves? Congress can't do anything except by voting on it, so by definition they'll have voted on the debt ceiling by authorizing the executive to raise the debt ceiling as he sees fit.
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Jon Inactive Member |
The government prints money, Jon. By definition they can't run out of it because they're the source of it. But we're not dealing with printed money; we're dealing with electronic money, money in the bank.
So, he'll just strike some. Why? He is not required to do so. Love your enemies!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
But we're not dealing with printed money; we're dealing with electronic money, money in the bank. Printed (or struck) money can be turned into electronic money in the bank. Seriously, Jon. It's something banks do! You can take them a wad of cash and they'll take it from you and turn it into "electronic money." It's an inconvenience, but if House Republicans are determined to prolong their manufactured crisis, then it'll just be one more market-distorting inefficiency forced upon us by "free market" conservatives.
He is not required to do so. As I said, he is required to do so - the executive branch has no constitutional unallotment power. Geithner has to pay everybody that Congress has decided to pay. That Congress has also declined to give him the money to do so, or to allow him to borrow the money in order to pay them, doesn't matter at all - a court would have no choice but to order the payment of legitimate classes of claimants because Congress has already legislated that they be paid. The result would be a line at the Treasury window, with each claimant possessed of a court order that they should be paid ahead of the other guys. But Geithner has both statutory and constitutional authority to ignore the debt ceiling altogether, since he's the one who prints the money. Making sure that new dollars are backed by revenue is Congress's job, not his, and House Republicans have decided to abdicate that responsibility. Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8556 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
The government prints money, Jon. By definition they can't run out of it because they're the source of it. The Secretary of the Treasury is given statutory authority to strike coinage. So, he'll just strike some. Under Federal Law he can strike all the platinum coinage he sees fit. You never heard of the Federal Reserve? The US government prints the bills, yes, but they cannot do anything with them until the Fed "buys" them to put them into circulation. The US Gov't cannot just print $$ and stick them into their various bank accounts to pay their bills. The way the Gov't gets cash into their accounts to pay their obligations is to sell things (like bills/coins to the Fed which only pays about 4 cents per note, not face value), collect taxes and tariffs or sell Treasury Notes and Bonds (debt). As of Aug. 3 the executive cannot sell any more Treasury obligations until congress authorizes an increase in the ceiling.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8556 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
As I said, he is required to do so ... No, Frog, he is not required to, authorized to or even permitted to. The Treasury can only print/strike what the Fed orders. It matters not what the Congress has obligated. Thus the debt problem.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I think you're trying to take me out of context, here; the thing I'm asserting he's required to do is pay those claimants that Congress has legislated to be paid. The thing you're saying he's not able to do is print money to do so, but that's something totally different and that's not what I've asserted he's required to do.
No, Frog, he is not required to, authorized to or even permitted to. Absolutely wrong. Treasury Secretary Geithner is absolutely required to allot payment to those claimants that Congress has legislated to be paid, contrary to your assertion.
The Treasury can only print/strike what the Fed orders. Well, no. USC 31.5112(k) gives the Treasury Secretary discretion to strike platinum coinage as he sees fit.
quote: Do you see? Both mint and issue. 31.5112(k) gives the Treasury Secretary full authority to strike whatever coins in platinum he wants, to whatever end he wants, and issue them into circulation. The Fed isn't the only way that new dollars can enter the economy; Geithner can simply strike some very large $1,000,000 coins and roll them into a bank.
Thus the debt problem. No, the debt ceiling problem is a result of Constitutional short-sightedness and a stop-gap measure enacted in WWII that results, uniquely among modern democracies, in Congress having to vote twice on the things they want to buy - once to allocate the funds to buy it, and once to actually get the funds.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
As of Aug. 3 the executive cannot sell any more Treasury obligations until congress authorizes an increase in the ceiling. Frankly, it's not at all clear that the executive is constrained by Congress's failure to raise the debt ceiling: 1) Since Congress has already established that these debts should be paid, and the Treasury has no Constitutional unallotment authority, claimants have a legal right to be paid. All of them. The Treasury is obligated to do so, there's no Constitutional authority for the Treasury to say "sorry, the money's not there." They have to pay everybody; they can't pick and choose. They have no authority to prioritize one payment over another, so any attempt to do so would be reversed by a judicial ruling. 2) The Fourteenth Amendment reads in part:
quote: This is understood as preventing the government from defaulting on government loans and as it is an amendment, it supersedes any legislation. Therefore the Executive branch's obligation to preserve the Federal government's trustworthiness and prevent default on the debt overrides the Congressional debt ceiling. 3) As stated the Treasury Secretary has unilateral authority to both mint and issue platinum coinage in any denomination and amount, as granted by Congress in US Code 31.5112(k).
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