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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
Panda
Member (Idle past 1973 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 91 of 255 (595062)
12-06-2010 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by ICdesign
12-06-2010 12:18 PM


Re: context is everything
ICDESIGN writes:

I can give some examples of what I'm talking about but first lets shift the spotlight to the one posing as the expert on scripture and the author of this thread.

jar, you claim to be a devout Christian but all I ever see you doing is talking smack about the bible and its claims. You completely deny we are sinners in need of a Savior. Devout Christian?


If you want to discuss Jar, then please start a new thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ICdesign, posted 12-06-2010 12:18 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 92 of 255 (595068)
12-06-2010 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by ICdesign
12-06-2010 12:18 PM


Re: context is everything
No, I have never seen a single supportable example of prophecy of Jesus, particularly none from the Old Testament.

Let's look at Mark in context.

I in the version of the story found in Mark 14, the author has the character Jesus talk about his premonitions of a coming death. If the stories about Jesus are true, that should have been obvious to him as well as many others. He was telling folk that it was time to stop just accepting what they were told and to start questioning the popular dogma; and that is never a popular position.

Regardless, the particular scripture is not referenced in the passage but it is most likely referring to the earlier passage in Mark 14 where he asks to be spared. It is the acceptance that death is the inevitable result of his behavior.

Here is the story in context.

quote:
Gethsemane

32 They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33 He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”

35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Couldn’t you keep watch for one hour? 38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.

41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

Jesus Arrested

43 Just as he was speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared. With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders.

44 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him and lead him away under guard.” 45 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Rabbi!” and kissed him.

46 The men seized Jesus and arrested him. 47 Then one of those standing near drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

48 “Am I leading a rebellion,” said Jesus, “that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? 49 Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.” 50 Then everyone deserted him and fled.

51 A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, 52 he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.


Note also, this story evolves much as all urban legends evolve over time as it gets retold in the other synoptic Gospels.

It also might help if instead of you saying what it is I believe, that you ask ME what it is I believe, but that should be in another thread, it is irrelevant to this one.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ICdesign, posted 12-06-2010 12:18 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ICdesign, posted 12-06-2010 1:12 PM jar has responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


(1)
Message 93 of 255 (595076)
12-06-2010 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
12-06-2010 12:36 PM


Re: context is everything
jar writes:

I in the version of the story found in Mark 14, the author has the character Jesus talk about his premonitions of a coming death. If the stories about Jesus are true, that should have been obvious to him as well as many others. He was telling folk that it was time to stop just accepting what they were told and to start questioning the popular dogma; and that is never a popular position

Here we go with gospel according to jar again. The text does not say any of this. Again what the scripture clearly states in Mark 14:49 is ..."THIS HAS TAKEN PLACE TO FULFILL THE SCRIPTURES"!

The Old Testament were the only scriptures there were at that time.

the particular scripture is not referenced in the passage but it is most likely referring to the earlier passage in Mark 14 where he asks to be spared.

Think about what you are saying jar. What happened earlier wasn't scripture yet.

It also might help if instead of you saying what it is I believe, that you ask ME what it is I believe

I was repeating your profession made on the testimony thread. I could look it up for you but as stated it is for another thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 12-06-2010 12:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 12-06-2010 2:56 PM ICdesign has responded
 Message 98 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2010 8:14 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 94 of 255 (595102)
12-06-2010 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICdesign
12-06-2010 1:12 PM


Re: context is everything
ICDESIGN writes:

Here we go with gospel according to jar again. The text does not say any of this. Again what the scripture clearly states in Mark 14:49 is ..."THIS HAS TAKEN PLACE TO FULFILL THE SCRIPTURES"!

The Old Testament were the only scriptures there were at that time.

Which, if it were true, is a classic sign of false and created prophecy; which by the way, it most likely was. I included the full passage to let folk see how the author of Mark told the story and, since it does not specify what scripture is involved, either refers back to earlier in the conversation or is a false and created prophetic fulfillment just as with your example I cover in Message 19 of Zacharia and Matthew.

I also doubt from what you post that you have any more idea what the word scripture means than the word prophecy.

Scripture simply means an inspired writing. It does NOT mean Canonized writings. In fact, at the time Jesus lived it is unlikely anything except perhaps the first five books had been Canonized.

According to the stories there were lots of "scripture" floating about and in common use that never made it into many of the Canons. A good example is the Book of Enoch, and that is one that it seems Jesus himself was familiar with or at least the writers give the character Jesus lines that show that he referred to it.

The point is, based on that text just as with every other example you have presented, I see no indication of either prophecy or fulfilled prophecy.

If you can show support, great, please do so.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICdesign, posted 12-06-2010 1:12 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ICdesign, posted 12-06-2010 3:55 PM jar has responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3057 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


(1)
Message 95 of 255 (595112)
12-06-2010 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by jar
12-06-2010 2:56 PM


bottom line
jar writes:

since it does not specify what scripture is involved, either refers back to earlier in the conversation

Mark was quoting what Jesus said. Mark was written from A.D. 50 to 70. Its obvious Mark wasn't referring to what Mark had written but what Jesus had said at the time before his crucifixion.

It is plain to see Jesus was referring to what was about to happen. Nowhere in scripture does it ever say Jesus had a premonition either. He always spoke with authority. Never did he speak the words: "I think; maybe, might or could.

Again in Mark 14:49 He spoke with absolute authority that what was taking place WAS fulfilling
scripture. Your feeble attempts to discredit what the scripture plainly and clearly states shows
your opinion is wrong and cannot be trusted.

To call it a premonition proves my point that you are a false teacher and a deceiver as I have stated all along.

.....and what ever your next posts are my answer is "your wrong"

end of story


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 12-06-2010 2:56 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Panda, posted 12-06-2010 4:25 PM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 97 by jar, posted 12-06-2010 5:22 PM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 104 by Woodsy, posted 12-30-2010 8:37 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1973 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 96 of 255 (595114)
12-06-2010 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ICdesign
12-06-2010 3:55 PM


Re: bottom line
ICDESIGN writes:

.....and what ever your next posts are my answer is "your wrong"


*You're

Irony...

Edited by Panda, : fomatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ICdesign, posted 12-06-2010 3:55 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 97 of 255 (595125)
12-06-2010 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ICdesign
12-06-2010 3:55 PM


Re: bottom line
The author of Mark was writing what he wanted the character Jesus in the story to say, perhaps even what he thought he remembered Jesus saying, but since the story evolves with each telling and the details change and since it was written at least a quarter century after Jesus died, it is highly unlikely to be what Jesus actually said.

It is also clear that since it does not specify what scripture did get fulfilled that it cannot be considered fulfilled prophecy. I can with equal authority claim I too fulfill scripture and if I was really pressed, I'm sure I could do a better job than the author of Mark did in supporting my position.

A claim to have fulfilled scripture is NOT prophecy and unless the exact scripture is mentioned it is in fact meaningless.

It also appears that in addition to scripture and prophecy, you do not understand what the word premonition means.

I included the section from Mark in case you or some readers had not read it and I imagine they can see that in the story, Jesus goes and asks, prays, that what is about to happen doesn't. That implies that he at least hoped that what certainly seemed inevitable could be avoided.

ICDESIGN writes:

To call it a premonition proves my point that you are a false teacher and a deceiver as I have stated all along.

.....and what ever your next posts are my answer is "your wrong"

end of story

That too is priceless.

Thank you.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ICdesign, posted 12-06-2010 3:55 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 238 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 98 of 255 (595289)
12-07-2010 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICdesign
12-06-2010 1:12 PM


context is everything: zechariah 13
ICDSIGN writes:

Here we go with gospel according to jar again. The text does not say any of this. Again what the scripture clearly states in Mark 14:49 is ..."THIS HAS TAKEN PLACE TO FULFILL THE SCRIPTURES"!

yes, it does clearly state that. however, we have the benefit of having said scriptures, with which we can compare such a statement.

if i told you yesterday "i'll give you back that five dollars tomorrow", and today i gave you fifty cents and said "obligation fulfilled!" you'd look at me a little funny and demand your $4.50. just the fact that i said i have fulfilled something doesn't mean that i have.

i understand that the bible gets a special pass with you, and most fundamentalist christians, but there's really no good reason why this should be the case. it is a simple logical disconnect -- $0.50 never equals $5.00. when you have the contract to compare the payment to, it's relatively easy to check. in this case, the "fulfilled" prophecy is zechariah 13. let's check it.

quote:
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for purification and for sprinkling. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered; and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. And it shall come to pass that, when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begot him shall say unto him: 'Thou shalt not live, for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD'; and his father and his mother that begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. nd it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be brought to shame every one through his vision, when he prophesieth; neither shall they wear a hairy mantle to deceive; but he shall say: 'I am no prophet, I am a tiller of the ground; for I have been made a bondman from my youth.' And one shall say unto him: 'What are these wounds between thy hands?' Then he shall answer: 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.' Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, and against the man that is near unto Me, saith the LORD of hosts; smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered; and I will turn My hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say: 'It is My people', and they shall say: 'The LORD is my God.'

Zechariah 13 (full chapter)


since i know you didn't read that just now, i'll give you the cliffs notes.

  1. purification of the house of david (ie: the kings of judah) and the city of jerusalem
  2. end of false prophecy
  3. war comes to judah
  4. leader cursed by god
  5. 2/3rds of judah destroyed
  6. third part carried through, and purified as a result
now, there are two traditional readings of zechariah, and this part is generally relegated to the post-messianic section in both. but i'd like to suggest a different, more sensible reading.

because numbers 1 through 5 of those things actually happened in jewish history. josiah, king of judah and from the house of david, did in fact purify jerusalem, removed idols, and kill false prophets. after josiah's death, jehoahaz briefly reigns and then is succeeded by jehoiakim. babylon invades. jehoiakim is replaced by jeconiah, who is cursed by the prophet jeremiah. judah is carried off into babylonian exile, with about a 1/3rd of the population remaining under babylonian rule.

considering that zechariah is writing at the time of the babylonian exile, it's quite silly to think he's talking about something else that just happens to be almost identical to the major political situation in his world. zechariah is primarily concerned with re-establishing the temple in jerusalem, and purifying judaism, and when persia -- darius the great -- takes over, he is one of the people that helps establish second temple judaism.

but let's look at the shepherd again.

quote:
Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, and against the man that is near unto Me, saith the LORD of hosts; smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered; and I will turn My hand upon the little ones.

note the rest of the verse which has obviously been omitted in the "fulfilled prophecy". if we are to suppose that the shepherd is christ (and not the cursed king jeconiah, and not the coming messiah as in jewish tradition), where is the part where god smites the christians? surely, i have missed that part of the gospel. oh, and lest you think the "wounded hands" bit above is another random christ reference, remember that zechariah is talking about false prophets.

in closing this chapter just fits its historical context too well to even be prophecy (in the sense that you mean) in the first place. most of the part christ is claiming as fulfilled prophecy (by him) in mark had already been "fulfilled" well before zechariah even wrote. the only bit that zechariah is actually predicting is the return from exile, and the re-establishment of the jewish religion.

this is a bit like me saying, "i'll give you back that five dollars tomorrow", giving you back five dollars the next day, and then 600 years later also giving you a nickel so that my obligation has been fulfilled.

edit:

The Old Testament were the only scriptures there were at that time.

it's worth noting that the old testament likely wasn't fully canonized during the time of christ. there was quite a lot of debate during that period about what should go in the third section of jewish scripture.

christ refers repeatedly to "the law (torah) and the prophets (nevi'im)" which are two sections of jewish scripture. the law (torah) is the five "books of moses" and the prophets (nevi'im) are joshua, samuel/kings, isaiah, jeremiah, ezekiel, and the 12 minor prophets (including zechariah). the other books, like job, psalms, esther, ruth, etc, were likely not part of the official canon yet. jesus does refer to the psalms, however.

it's also worth noting that there is a wealth of extra-canonical literature that simply never made the cut.

Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICdesign, posted 12-06-2010 1:12 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 99 of 255 (596917)
12-17-2010 10:40 PM


Bump to see if anyone thinks there is an Old Testament prophecy that refers to Jesus
Just a bump to see if anyone thinks that there is an Old Testament prophecy that even refers to Jesus.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 100 of 255 (597127)
12-19-2010 7:49 PM


Bump for Dawn Bertot
So he can show us all the support for a unity of theme and pupose between the Old and New Testaments that refers to Jesus.

Just a note Dawn, let's take your claimed support one example at a time; the actual chapter and verse please.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 238 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 101 of 255 (597968)
12-26-2010 5:57 AM


isaiah 7, in dawn's thread.
i have officially given up trying to direct dawn to this thread. he wants to make claims regarding prophecy, but does not wish to participate in this thread where his claims and our arguments would be on-topic. at the same time, he wants to pretend like we don't have an argument, because we try to keep discussions in their appropriate tactics. this is a particularly devious debating technique, and one i suspect nearly everyone can see straight through.

however, in an effort to actually explain our argument in his thread, slightly off-topic though it may be, i have contributed a rather lengthy hand-holding reading comprehension analysis of isaiah 7 to his thread. it is complete with historical context showing how it was already fulfilled around the time it was given, and a demonstration regarding how it really cannot have anything to do with jesus.

people may wish to hold a more enlightened discussion on the topic here, in the appropriate thread. i imagine this will totally derail dawn's thread, as it has dome many a prophecy thread. as if dawn's thread was really ever on any rails to begin with, right?


אָרַח

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by arachnophilia, posted 12-28-2010 9:22 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 238 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 102 of 255 (598167)
12-28-2010 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by arachnophilia
12-26-2010 5:57 AM


isaiah 7:14, a more enlightened analysis
okay, so thanks to iTanakh, i have found a particularly interesting doctoral thesis on the topic of isaiah 7:14.

it's about 300 pages, so i haven't by any means read all of it yet. but i've skimmed through some important sections of the first two chapters, and it largely confirms what i've been saying. it does, however, hint at an interesting take on matthew's reading of isaiah 7:14, but does not seem to elaborate.

it quotes some scholarship (ch2, II, 1) that tries to affirm the nonsense that dawn has been spouting -- he doesn't get this stuff from nowhere. not scholarship, of course, but scholarship filtered through clergy, filtered through fundy pastors. of course, it goes on to rebut those claims in much the same way i have: i devalues the prophecy and turns it into nonsense, and prophets were not fortune-tellers.

in any case, the text argues, on the whole, that imanuel was king hezekiah. this in part due to the context of the two assyrian invasions, the structure of proto-isaiah, and some of the textual details. for instance, it affirms my less than standard analysis that הָרָה "is pregnant" is essentially present tense, while קָרָאת שְׁמוֹ "will call his name" is essentially future tense. (biblical hebrew lacks actual time-related tenses, but it's not too hard to figure out, and generally works much the same way as modern hebrew) the author also points to the fact that the LXX translations "you will call his name" and not "she will call his name", indicating that the LXX translators understood that king ahaz was the father -- imanuel was his son.

i would quote the pertinent sections, but copying is disabled. i don't particularly feel like finding a work-around, or re-typing it all myself. and if the author has copy-protected it, it's likely because he wants people to read it in its source.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by arachnophilia, posted 12-26-2010 5:57 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1551 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 103 of 255 (598202)
12-29-2010 1:49 PM


I normally don't participate in prophecy threads because it's simply not within my interest. I just wanted to quickly pointed out something that I've been talking about for years.

Scientific minded people, or at least those who are skeptics, police their own ranks. If I were to come out and say "all christians are murderers and rapists", no doubt among my biggest critics will be my fellow skeptics.

On the other hand, let me quote ICDesign in this thread.

ICDesign writes:

2 Peter 2:1 ....there will be false teachers among you,
who will secretly bring in destructive heresies....
and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the
tradition of men, according to the basic principles of
the world, and not according to Christ.

Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various
and strange doctrines.

Ephesians 4:14 ...we are no longer to be children,
tossed here and there by waves and carried about
by every wind of of doctrine, by the trickery of men
by craftiness in deceitful scheming...

2Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY
GOD and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for
correction, for training in righteousness...

Matthew 24:35 Jesus said: Heaven and earth will
pass away, but my words will not pass away.

So guess what jar? Long after you are dead and
gone and your big mouth has been silenced, the
Word of God will still be marching on as it has
from day one and will continue to do till the final
day. The bible is by far the number one selling
book in all of history and by far the most loved
and the most read of any book ever written.

Nothing you will ever say or do will put even the
slightest dent in the unchangeable truth of
THE WORD OF GOD


This is pretty much "lalala I can't hear you" dressed in biblical quotes. Through the 7 pages of this thread, I have only seen skeptics criticism of ICDesign's behavior. IDists and Creationists, where art thou?

By staying silent, the sensible IDists and creationists seem to encourage the more extreme, crackpot elements within their ranks to prosper.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who have made this observation over the years.


  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 1634 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 104 of 255 (598305)
12-30-2010 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ICdesign
12-06-2010 3:55 PM


Re: bottom line
All this is incredibly dumb.

The NT was obviously tweaked to make it look like ancient prophecies were being fulfilled. What else would you expect in religious propaganda?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ICdesign, posted 12-06-2010 3:55 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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wangyin 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 2895 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 07-19-2011


Message 105 of 255 (624776)
07-19-2011 11:54 PM


re:
This is my first time i visit here. I found so many entertaining stuff in your blog, especially its discussion. From the tons of comments on your articles, I guess I am not the only one having all the leisure here! Keep up the good work.

{Spam links deleted - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.


    
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